Kemp's Outpost

Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:43 pm

Decided to set up this as a repository for occasional posts from time to time. In no particular order (date related), I'll start with the most recent Sketchup/rendering related work. This way, I'm not making posts for each project, but one page for all I share.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:15 pm

Grande Station Library or Steampunk Station An examination of SketchUp’s Diffusion extension:

SketchUp 2020, SU4iPad, SU2023 Diffusion:

Conclusion:
A very fast, powerful, one eyed, nearsighted thoroughbred race horse with blinders on but, wonderfully fun to play with. My findings are described below as to why that is my conclusion along with my observations of it’s strength and weakness in context of a large model.

The Project:
A collage of personal work brought together for these Diffusion tests, was originally started back in 2019 from a vision of a much larger, expansive project combining a great library, social hub and train station mixing steampunk and ancient, extinct, titanic civilizations megalithic stone structures in the background to include allot of air transport with a focus on this train. The train itself is an ongoing project that is not meant to be presented strapped to tracks, but instead, floating locomotion via electromagnetic generators. It’s inspiration comes from the work of Arcadeous Phoenix, who also built the original rail system here (now modified) and the transformers sticking out of the roof. Nothing here is completed. The train has work to be done, the station is not complete (piping, ventilation, accessories, tunnel entrance/exit points, smaller square windows frames to fit in these larger roof frames, etc.)

However, in the interest of working with a larger scale model, these original assets were edited to present this version specifically for these Diffusion tests.

Motivation:
Testing Diffusion on smaller models and seeing so many examples of Diffusion created by other users, I was curious how well the extension would handle allot of geometry in a larger scale project, principally viewed from the interior. This is the answer to those musings. For my previous comparison of Diffusion to the one eyed horse, I’ll provide the breakdown as fallows.

Fast and Powerful:
It truly is remarkable to see the variation, effects, bells & whistles, additions and vast colour schemes that the extension produces so quickly. With every click of “Generate”, even without adding new descriptions, Diffusion creates new images with a wonderful set of three variation renders.

The pros and cons with an exercise like this are to be balanced as with scales, new inspirational ideas in one hand and loss of progress on what is desired in the other. With each new generation, three new options are provided with amazing speed. Comparatively, this is why I’m using thoroughbred racehorse as a label. For this aspect, Diffusion is truly impressive for use in concept to convey a vision without the need to be too specific or faithful to detail or respecter of already chosen materials.

Yet, it is fast and powerful.

One eyed, nearsighted:
As seen from the comparison images from SketchUp and Thea Renders, there’s much detail that gets lost. When the scene’s center has geometry further off, Diffusion seems to get a bit confused as if it’s nearsightedness works great for what is directly in front of it but that distance seems to confuse the AI. So, simple objects, centered and close produce rather (or more so) reliable representations while distant objects produce scattered or blurry results. But, even with something as simple as a round, circle port window, Diffusion translates the geometry into something seen in a Salvador Dalì painting.

Even though the simple geometry is right in front and center… this is where I wish the maximum 100% value of “Respect Model Geometry” was reworked so that 100% actually is 100% and not a 50% “close your eyes, fill in the gap, hit and miss, prancing pony” thing. In this case, I really want to rely more on the horse power this beast has but, isn’t applied to the extend I think it should bed in this aspect.

Blinders:
As mentioned before about focusing on near/far objects, I find that it seems to be accentuated even more with stuff on the sides. It seems (perhaps my perspective anyway) that the AI gets even more funky, creative at filling in the gaps with the stuff that is not right in front and more to the sides. I haven’t quite figured out to what extent or if it’s just a continuation of the same issue mentioned above. But, again, this might be confirmed or solved if selecting 100% on “Respect Model Geometry” will be reworked to do just that.

One obvious discovery, when tried, is that Diffusion currently rejects 2pt perspective. After preparing scenes with 2 pt perspective to keep verticals in certain scenes, the launch of Diffusion kicks that perspective right out. So, the plugin cannot take advantage of SketchUp’s different camera features. As long as one knows this, the scenes can be set up appropriately to accommodate this current weakness.

However, I conclude that Diffusion is an excellent tool and amazing resource for concept work. To be able to produce, in shorthand and scribbles, an image that conveys “ideas” of what something “could” look like or be in the end, is simply fantastic. Not only for the simple objective of communicating ideas but, as a great inspirational tool to generate variations that one would not natively create if left alone.

Basically, Diffusion is a fun, useful and creative extension to have in the tool box. And if a quick deadline or fast turn over of work is required, this thoroughbred will run the race well.

Scene 01

Diffusion Interior Photorealistic

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

01 Steampunk Station-Scene 1 B2 1920x1080 23m37s.jpg


02 Steampunk Station-Scene 1 B SU.png


Diffusion:

03 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Int PReal A 20240205 18h22m30s.png


04 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Int PReal B 20240205 19h06m12s.png


05 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Int PReal C 20240205 20h08m08s.png


Diffusion Interior Photorealistic

06 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Ext PReal A 20240205 07h27m24s.png


07 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Ext PReal B 20240205 08h55m26s.png


08 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Ext PReal C 20240205 11h41m09s.png


09 Steampunk Station Scene 1 Diff Ext PReal D 20240205 13h01m58s.png


Scene with arches in background

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

10 Steampunk Station-Scene 1 C 1920x1080 28m30s.jpg


11 Steampunk Station-Scene 1 C SU.png
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Last edited by duanekemp on Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:54 am, edited 5 times in total.
Duane Kemp

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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:26 pm

Steampunk Station scene 2 & 5

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

12 Steampunk Station-Scene 5 1920x1080 50m01s.jpg


13 Steampunk Station-Scene 5 SU.png



Diffusion:

14 Steampunk Station scene 2 & 5 20240206 11h06m28s.png


15 Steampunk Station scene 2 & 5 20240206 16h44m37s.png



Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

16 Steampunk Station-Scene 2 1920x1080 1h13m0139s.jpg


17 Steampunk Station-Scene 2 SU.png


Diffusion:

18 Steampunk Station scene 2 & 5 20240131 09h31m19s.png


19 Steampunk Station scene 2 & 5 20240131 09h30m50s.png
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby marked001 » Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:56 pm

Very cool.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby jo-ke » Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:14 pm

beautiful! I love it.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby ntxdave » Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:40 pm

jo-ke wrote:beautiful! I love it.
marked001 wrote:Very cool.


Agree! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby HornOxx » Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:39 pm

Prima !!!!!
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby Rich O Brien » Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:25 pm

As seen from the comparison images from SketchUp and Thea Renders, there’s much detail that gets lost. When the scene’s center has geometry further off, Diffusion seems to get a bit confused as if it’s near sightedness works great for what is directly in front of it but that distance seems to confuse the AI. So, simple objects, centered and close produce rather (or more so) reliable representations while distant objects produce scattered or blurry results. But, even with something as simple as a round, circle port window, Diffusion translates the geometry into something seen in a Salvador Dalì painting.


A very accurate description of the diffusion model currently. A bad dream type of detail in my opinion.

I think its good to concept but not suitable to be used as final output. It can only get better to the detriment of those that spent years perfecting their skills.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:43 pm

Steampunk Station Scene 4

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

20 Steampunk Station-Scene 4 1920x1080 1h05m32s.jpg


21 Steampunk Station-Scene 4 SU.png



Diffusion:

22 Steampunk Station Scene 4 C 20240201 16h26m20s.png


23 Steampunk Station Scene 4 A 20240201 19h45m16s.png


24 Steampunk Station Scene 4 B 20240201 20h20m41s.png
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:52 pm

Steampunk Station Scene 8

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

25 Steampunk Station-Scene 8 1920x1080 58m38s.jpg


26 Steampunk Station-Scene 8 SU.png



Diffusion:

27 Steampunk Station Scene 8 20240131 18h01m53s.png



SCENE 08 B

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

28 Steampunk Station-Scene 8 B 1920x1080 1h02m03s.jpg


29 Steampunk Station-Scene 8 B.png


Diffusion:

30 Steampunk Station Scene 8 A 20240131 20h56m06s.png


31 Steampunk Station Scene 8 C 20240201 09h29m50s.png


32 Steampunk Station Scene 8 D 20240201 09h56m28s.png
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:02 pm

Steampunk Station Scene 14

Scene 14 A

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

33 Steampunk Station-Scene 14 A 1920x1080 58m12s.jpg


34 Steampunk Station-Scene 14 A SU.png


Diffusion:

35 Steampunk Station Scene 14 A Dif-Ext-PR A 20240202 00h38m14s.png


SCENE 14 B

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

36 Steampunk Station-Scene 14 B 1920x1080 34m52s.jpg


37 Steampunk Station-Scene 14 B SU.png


Diffusion:

38 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Clay A 20240203 11h50m40s.png


39 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Clay B 20240203 11h49m22s.png


40 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Ext-PR B 20240202 09h32m57s.png


41 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Ext-PR C 20240202 01h00m59s.png


42 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Int-PR A 20240202 19h08m30s.png


43 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Int-PR B 20240202 19h20m25s.png


44 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Phys Model A 20240203 11h07m39s.png


45 Steampunk Station Scene 14 B Dif-Phys Model B 20240203 08h01m34s.png
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:09 pm

Steampunk Station Scene 18

Scene 18 B

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

46 Steampunk Station-Scene 18 B 1920x1080 59m28s.jpg


47 Steampunk Station-Scene 18 B SU.png



Diffusion:

48 Steampunk Station Scene 18 no arches Dif-Int-PR A 20240204 18h39m35s.png


49 Steampunk Station Scene 18 no arches Dif-Int-PR B 20240204 20h01m18s.png



Scene 18 A

Reference: Thea Render and SketchUp Screenshot

50 Steampunk Station-Scene 18 1920x1080 1h05m19s.jpg


51 Steampunk Station-Scene 18 SU.png



Diffusion:

52 Steampunk Station Scene 18 Dif-Ext-PR A 20240203 15h43m36s.png


53 Steampunk Station Scene 18 Dif-Ext-PR B 20240203 19h50m13s.png


54 Steampunk Station Scene 18 Dif-Ext-PR C 20240204 11h34m08s.png
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:24 pm

Thank you for kudos. Much appreciated.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby panixia » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:28 pm

Now, that's a massive model :o
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:49 pm

Rich O Brien wrote:
But, even with something as simple as a round, circle port window, Diffusion translates the geometry into something seen in a Salvador Dalì painting.


A very accurate description of the diffusion model currently. A bad dream type of detail in my opinion.

I think its good to concept but not suitable to be used as final output. It can only get better to the detriment of those that spent years perfecting their skills.


@Rich, I agree!

I spent three days looking at over 1000s of variations, selected a hundred+ of those I thought were reasonable as the others were just NUTS! Then, from those, my family helped in a day selecting their favorites which I weeded down to those the family mutually agreed on and a few of my own favs.

But, even though this is not my best Thea Rendering effort, which wasn't the point of this exercise, preparing the materials alone for render took three days with edits and test with two days Just to make 10 quick renders? Part of me is screaming, "not fair" while the other part is crying that the world don't care one way or the other and this is the future as this tech improves. For myself, I see this as the DJ that took bands out of bars, concerts, weddings and parties by owners that could have a night of music at 1/8th the price or more!

However, before I ranted too much in public on the issue, I knew as well I needed to immerse myself in some practical tests to wrap my head around the subject enough to have an opinion, thus these tests. Alas, the future looks bleak, exciting fun and cheap. I guess those who are celebrating are those who can work faster and cheaper for those who discern less for quality, talent and experience... with the exception, as you mention, for concept work. If I can vomit out an idea to get an agreement for work to be done, than I have no moral issue with using this tool, as it does that very well. But, with this tech in the hands of newbies who have no understanding of the challenges with getting realistic results, expectation of clients will change as well, accepting the one click solution as equal to the sweat, experience and passion of rendering they had to "pay" for. I may be a bit slanted or prejudiced but, I think I'm being rather realistic in my assessment as well.

As we saw digital music replace musicians, the more this tech advances, I believe we will (or are) seeing the mortality of the technical expertise of the artistry and profession we've known. The day that AI produces "controlled" work in perfection under direction (or automated), is the day that the masters' and gurus' end has come in this game.

LOL! And all that after all this "fun" becoming familiar with the tool. I believe you and others who share this perspective, are spot on.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby Rich O Brien » Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:56 pm

I think that no matter how good it gets it will always lack imagination.

People still draw and paint despite disruption with digital media.

I'm optimistic about it. Rock'n'roll is here to stay :thumb:
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:15 am

I sure hope you're right!!!!
Please be right. :-)
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby jo-ke » Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:06 am

There are several areas in which AI is much better than normal render engines: these are textiles! I've decided to render architecture classically and render textiles in Skechup diffusion and then mix the two together in Photoshop.

In your case it's about architecture. rendering is better than diffusion.

The light is often better in diffusion.

I hope AI and render will merge, to have the best of both worlds
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby marked001 » Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:34 pm

Thanks for doing these comparisons.. very cool to see.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby panixia » Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:44 pm

jo-ke wrote:The light is often better in diffusion.

Yeah, in those few cases in which the sun isn't casting shadows in 4 different directions, maybe.. :-P
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:28 pm

marked001 wrote:Thanks for doing these comparisons.. very cool to see.


Glad you appreciate them for that reason. Thanks.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby Rich O Brien » Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:37 pm

This would be a great article on the site here...

viewtopic.php?p=695131#p695131

Its useful, informative and honest feedback from a power user's viewpoint

It reminded of another I read last month on the topic of 3d rendering and AI

https://uxdesign.cc/using-ai-for-3d-ren ... a037ed1ad0
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:21 am

Just read the article. Yes, he sums up rather well the advantages and weaknesses, especially that of control.
Good for initial concept ideas, but... not a solution for "on purpose" projects.
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Last edited by duanekemp on Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby Mike Amos » Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:26 am

I have just spent several minutes smiling like a loon. Thanks mate. :knockout: :)
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:27 pm

Mike Amos wrote:I have just spent several minutes smiling like a loon. Thanks mate. :knockout: :)


Loon: North American waterfowl, primary character from "On Golden Pond" that forebodes doom and gloom.

Loon1.jpg


Loon: a relative of Daffy Duck and/or Woody Wood Pecker, characters that laugh at doom and gloom.

Daffy_early.jpg



In either case, I assume that is a positive thing. :fro:
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby panixia » Wed Feb 14, 2024 8:45 pm

duanekemp wrote:not a solution for "on purpose" projects.

A couple of weeks ago, while I was modeling that compost turning machine you probably saw on sketchup facebook page, a friend came out with one of those "magic" AI modeling website..
He prompted the robot to produce "A square sofa pillow with white and red stripes" to put it in a rendering.
The robot proposed 4 different (half decent) pillows and he was like "You see? You can use this stuff for actual work".

So I was curious to test it for my "actual work" and prompted in more or less the following (which were the exact requirements for my animated model) just to see to what extent it could be "useful":

I need a self-propelled compost heap turning machine, about 3 meters tall and 4 meters wide.
It should consist of 3 draw calls, the first one for the main body, the second one for the animated tracks and the third one for the animated roller.
The main material should be orange paint with compost splats coming from below and the "AMIU Puglia S.p.a" logo on the back of the cabin.
The textures should be packed for Unity HDRP metallic-smoothness PBR shader.
I need the UV chart to be split in 2 different UDIM tiles, a 4k set for the main body and a 2k set for the animated parts.
It should be rigged to follow a spline and I need constraints on the tracks and the roller in order to follow accordingly whenever the model animates along the spline


The robot proposed 4 different machines similar to a coffee grinder (static models, with only base color map, about 1m x 1m x 1m large, with no tracks or roller whatsoever).
Two were blue and two were green.
None of them was at least orange.

So yeah.. that's it :roflmao:
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:07 pm

panixia wrote:
duanekemp wrote:not a solution for "on purpose" projects.



The robot proposed 4 different machines similar to a coffee grinder (static models, with only base color map, about 1m x 1m x 1m large, with no tracks or roller whatsoever).
Two were blue and two were green.
None of them was at least orange.

So yeah.. that's it :roflmao:


Marcello, that just made me laugh out loud.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby rv1974 » Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:10 pm

there are examples that look virtually the same but one took 1 hour while other - 19 hours.
Why such HUGE gaps? I never realized all this AI generation is so time consuming :o
Is this done locally?
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby duanekemp » Thu Feb 15, 2024 4:47 am

rv1974 wrote:there are examples that look virtually the same but one took 1 hour while other - 19 hours.
Why such HUGE gaps? I never realized all this AI generation is so time consuming :o
Is this done locally?


These are final selections out of a collection of a hundred+ images saved over days of testing with different settings. The gap does not indicate the time to create the image, it is only the time between two presented images (not showing images made between those gaps) as the times stamp is the designation given when saving out an image. So, after going to bed and starting the next day, that's already many, many hours between tests, let alone the series of tests before finding something I felt worthy of saving. Then, when finished, the family helped select their favorites, which means allot of saved images are not presented. So, it takes no time at all to make an image. But, to find something worth saving may take allot of time and myriads of tries, which explains the difference in the gaps between shots.

I hope that makes sense anyway.
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Re: Kemp's Outpost

Postby jo-ke » Thu Feb 15, 2024 5:31 pm

Very interessting post.

Su diffusion is quite good but there is little opportunity to influence the result.

I took your Sketchup output and tried to create an image with Stable Diffusion and controlnet. Here you can have a much bigger influence on the image.

I hope you like the result
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