Bad sunlight

General discussion on Thea Render for SketchUp

Moderator: Frederik

Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:34 pm

Hi guys, not sure what the problem is here and was wondering if any Thea wizards could give me a bit of advice.

I'm setting up an internal scene with IBL settings and for the life of me I can't tone down the sunlight!! I've set if as Adaptive [BSD] and the environment and Display settings are attached.

Would love to hear back from someone soon if you have any ideas....

Thank you muchly. :thumb:
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby olishea » Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:51 am

Hello.

What is the intensity of your illumination slot?

What is the intensity of the sun?
0
oli
User avatar
olishea 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:16 am

Hi Oli, thanks for chiming in.

Intensity of illumination is 1.000. Intensity (Power (W/nm/sr) of the Sun is also 1.000. I haven't changed either....

What I don't understand is the difference between Illumination, Background, Reflection and Refraction.
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby olishea » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:42 am

Illumination is the image based LIGHTING. This will affect the intensity of the HDR that shines into your model. Think of it as a globe around your model of which you can change the intensity.

Background does not cast light into your model. It merely acts as a background and acts independently of the illumination slot.

Reflection/refraction maps allow the objects in the scene to reflect/refract a different HDR to the one thats in your background or illumination slot. Imagine you wanted to light a scene with a Studio HDRI but you want your object to reflect/refract an outdoor scene.....this is what this slot is for.

The reason there are this many slots is so you have ultimate control of the light in your scene.

For example, you may be happy with your background brightness but you want more light to enter your model. You keep the background intensity at 1 and then increase the strength of the illumination, this means they can act independently. Conversely you can also decrease background intensity to match the light in your scene.

These independent lighting slots also allow you to use a lower res HDR for illumination (quicker render time) and then a very high res JPEG for the background slot.....if that's applicable. Sometimes I will render with a 4000x2000 .hdr and then put a 10000x5000 JPEG in the background for sharpness. It's not strictly necessary but sometimes you come across problems trying to render a very high res .hdr in the illumination slot.

You can, of course, just use one slot. Place a hdr in the illumination slot and what you see is what you get. It will provide light and act as the background.

Your illumination/sun settings are normal so let me ask.....have you bumped up the exposure to increase the light in the model? Or ISO? Or Brightness? Or f-number? These are like post processing tools.

If so, you may need to reduce your illumination or sun intensity to compensate for this extra exposure. (the exterior does look very bright indeed)

I suggest you disable the illumination and do a test render......see if your HDR is causing the extreme light. Then it's just a process of elimination as to what is causing it. If the HDR is giving a nice light then the sun is to blame.

If you are having to bump up your exposure so much to see the interior, you may want to consider a few emitters behind the camera to add more light.

To me, it looks like the illumination (hdr) is causing the extreme light entering the roof. It does not look like the sun. You may want to try reducing illumination intensity to 0.5 and see what happens. Change the background intensity to your taste so everything is balanced.

Does this make sense? :lol:
1
oli
User avatar
olishea 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JQL » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:33 am

Utiler,

Try saving your render as an HDR or EXR file, wich will then have 32-bit depth for color.

Then use either Luminance HDR or Picturenaut wich are free for hdr tonemapping. Of course you can also use Photoshop or any other 32-bit depth color editor for that and if you are used to Gimp, try getting a nigthly build because it already has up to 64bit color depth. (You have to convert one of those HDR or EXR to Tiff with any of the other programs as Thea does not create a higher than 8bit Tif files and gimp doesn't open EXR or HDR)
0
User avatar
JQL 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby rspierenburg » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:33 pm

Just my 2cents, not sure of what outcome you are looking for, but the rendering looks about right to me. You would get the same (if not worse) effect if you were to take a photograph inside the building.

Rob
0

rspierenburg 
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JGA » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:33 pm

The image looks fine to me too!
Perhaps you could add a light to give a little more impact or reflection in the foreground, but the room looks like a cool oasis from a hot afternoon :enlight:
0
Regards,
JGA

JGA 
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:10 pm

Hey, thanks guy and cheers for the encouragement!! :thumb:

Oli - really appreciate the effort you've gone to explain in laymen's terms; that's helped a lot! I think you're right regarding exposure settings; I think i've bumped it up to get a daytime interior level of light..... Will also have a look at a LEM's to build it up when I drop back those exposure settings. :thumb: :thumb:
@JQL - they sound like interesting tools; might give it a go if I can't get the light to work. They're certainly tools I could look at tools on future workflow so thanks for the heads up!!

Love this place. :fro:
1
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby david_h » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:34 pm

Just by coincidence. . .I have a question along the same lines. And mostly cuz I really don't understand this stuff. I'm playing around with a model that I thought I wanted to look like a table-top architectural model so I put in some IBL studio light, but it was not what I wanted after all. So If I have a model and active IBL lighting Thea, select one of the studio images let's say. I decide I just want to go back to good ol' sun and sky? how do I disable the IBL? Is that in the environment tab? Thanks in advance. I'm still a noobie/ novice here, so I'll need you talk slowly. :mrgreen:

IBL.png
0
If I make it look easy. . .then it probably is.
User avatar
david_h 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JQL » Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:54 pm

david_h wrote:Just by coincidence. . .I have a question along the same lines. And mostly cuz I really don't understand this stuff. I'm playing around with a model that I thought I wanted to look like a table-top architectural model so I put in some IBL studio light, but it was not what I wanted after all. So If I have a model and active IBL lighting Thea, select one of the studio images let's say. I decide I just want to go back to good ol' sun and sky? how do I disable the IBL? Is that in the environment tab? Thanks in advance. I'm still a noobie/ novice here, so I'll need you talk slowly. :mrgreen:

IBL.png


If you have it like in that image, then it's deactivated.

The dropdown menu there, tells you what kind of sky you're editing. IBL means you're editing the settings for the images of the Image Base Lighting sky. If you switch to SUN, you can edit your sun manually, making it totally independent from the Sketchup SUN. If you switch to SKY you're editing Thea's physical sky parameters.

The "use sky" tick box means you're using Thea's physical sky of other sky sources (IBL). If you turn it off it renders black.

You can disable the sun also and you'll get a black render unless you have artificial light on or an IBL turned on. This is completely different from a night render as in that case the sky should be a dark blue and not black.

However if you insert ANY image on the IBL slots and activate the corresponding tick box with the physical sky turned off, you're using an IBL instead, as described already. It should be an high bit depth image EXR, HDR or TIFF etc, for lighting but you can use any image to get ligthing in Thea... that dark blue for instance, if you want a night sky. A JPG can be used if you mess around with intensity.
1
User avatar
JQL 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby david_h » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:12 am

If you have it like in that image, then it's deactivated.

The dropdown menu there, tells you what kind of sky you're editing. IBL means you're editing the settings for the images of the Image Base Lighting sky. If you switch to SUN, you can edit your sun manually, making it totally independent from the Sketchup SUN. If you switch to SKY you're editing Thea's physical sky parameters.

The "use sky" tick box means you're using Thea's physical sky of other sky sources (IBL). If you turn it off it renders black.

You can disable the sun also and you'll get a black render unless you have artificial light on or an IBL turned on. This is completely different from a night render as in that case the sky should be a dark blue and not black.

However if you insert ANY image on the IBL slots and activate the corresponding tick box with the physical sky turned off, you're using an IBL instead, as described already. It should be an high bit depth image EXR, HDR or TIFF etc, for lighting but you can use any image to get ligthing in Thea... that dark blue for instance, if you want a night sky. A JPG can be used if you mess around with intensity.


I think I got about half of that. . .(i'm fuzzy on the whole "slots" thing")
I do get that If click on an IBL image. .. that IBL takes over, and yet when I do click off the image and go to Sun or sky it feels really washed out . .. much more than before I inserted the image I am playing with the sun setting and sky settings without really know what I am doing, but it still doesn't get it back to the good ol' raw sun / sky from before. Are there some good tuts on IBL lighting that I can refer to. It would be fun to import my own images into scenes to get light. Thanks for the response.

David
0
If I make it look easy. . .then it probably is.
User avatar
david_h 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JQL » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:04 am

If you disable manual sun, Sketchup«s sun position takes over so that is covered by SU itself.

Wich leaves you to the sky settings. I never thought of resetting sky myself, but if you make a new scene, what will the sky settings for that scene be?

I've had an Environment (Sky/Sun/IBL) workflow chat with Tomasz over at Thea forums about things that were not intuitive in the way things are working on T4SU.

The best advice I can give you is that you open Thea tool and on the bottom of the Camera tab you'll see a small box wich is called Scene Settings.

Even if they're almost hidden under Camera, with those you can manage everything related to scenes and not only cameras. Actually the only thing they don't manage on scenes is camera position.

Use the SAVE and LOAD Scene settings disks wisely as they are of utermost importance and can be either friends or foes if you know or don't know what you're doing. Thea isn't particularly intuitive in this regard so...

Green disk loads settings that were saved on a listed scene. Red disks saves settings on currently listed scene. This looks basic, but it's not...

It seems you can only save settings on a scene after having loaded any setting from any scene. Even if the displayed settings you see on Thea tools are the ones used on the next render, the settings saved on scene are a totally different thing and a scene only stores settings if you do exactly as described. (I hope this will change sooner than later)

If you never used the RED disk on the scene you were making all your experiments, you can load that scene's settings with the GREEN disk. If this is the case, then the GREEN disk will revert the environment settings back from when you first created the scene. Again, you can only save settings (RED disk) after loading some settings. Otherwise the saved scene settings will not get saved. So if this is the settings you want to save to that scene, do it now.

If you have a scene with some settings that suite you nicely, then choose it on the list of scenes, and click the GREEN disk. Then select back the scene you were at and use the RED disk on it. The settings from the choosen scene will be saved on this scene, however the camera position will always stay untouched unless you change it in SU or click the Level camera button, on Camera tab.

Take care that by doing this you might (if all boxes are ticked) overwrite all the other settings too and not only environment wich in fact is called Sky/IBL(This should change for UI consistency). If you only want to retrieve the environment from another scene, then you must untick all boxes but Sky/IBL.

After setting what you need. Don't forget to use the red disk.

The trouble here is that if you click render without clicking the red disk, what you see is what you'll get, but that will not be stored in your scene, so if you render something else, you'll loose those settings and have to start all over (actually in your case that seems nice as you might not want to save your trial and error mistakes...).

Again (I can't stress this enough), you will only be able to save settings if you load some first.

This GREEN DISK/RED DISK workflow is key for animations and batch render or simply to have your scenes on Thea, always correcly set.

If all is set and you want to render scenes with the stored settings, you'll always have to manually load settings prior to clicking render button.

I hope this helps but shout if you need something else.
1
User avatar
JQL 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby david_h » Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:50 am

wow. That's great. Thanks for taking the time. I will try this when I get back to the office I am truly grateful that you went in this kind of depth on my behalf. Just another reason why this is the greatest forum ever. :thumb: :thumb:

Thanks again.

D
0
If I make it look easy. . .then it probably is.
User avatar
david_h 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby david_h » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:34 pm

to Utiler if I hijacked your thread, My Apologies :oops:
0
If I make it look easy. . .then it probably is.
User avatar
david_h 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:11 am

david_h wrote:to Utiler if I hijacked your thread, My Apologies :oops:



No apology needed, mate. It's all relevant!! :thumb:
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby sepo » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:30 pm

Your ISO is 1200 if I see it correctly. It will burn outside image for sure. I would make combo of flash light (emiter) behind a camera and lower ISO.
0

sepo 
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:01 pm

Thanks sepo. :thumb:
What do you mean by 'flash light' behind the camera? An LEM face?
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby solo » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:05 am

Andrew

Here is a little test, first image is basic room with one opening, default settings.
I used an HDRI and SU sun for lighting

Room is dark yet exterior clouds look right.

default.png



This image I increased the ISO to 400 and it brightened up room but blows out the exterior clouds.

ISO 400.png



Now as Sepo said, try adding an LEM plane behind camera, you can control the amount of light using the multiplier.


LEM behind.png
1
http://www.solos-art.com

If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.
User avatar
solo 
Global Moderator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby sepo » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:47 pm

Sorry, I was not arround last couple of days. I meant exactly what Pete demonstrated.
0

sepo 
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:42 pm

Thanks heaps, Pete.

A few questions:
ISO settings; I can't find any info in the Thea for SketchUp manual to explain its effects. [you suggest a setting of 400, JQL suggest 1200 and the Sketchup 2014 for Arc Viz book suggests 1600 [interior render] so I'm a little confused as to its role. [As for shutter and f number setting]

Another thing; do you guys use advacnes camera settings to locate camera? Just wondering if I'm going to locate an LEM behind the camera then is it by trial and error or purposely placed?

:thumb: :thumb:
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:02 am

And one more...;

Do you guys generally use the same settings for your internal and external renders and manipulate the internal light with LEM's?
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JQL » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:05 am

utiler wrote:Thanks heaps, Pete.

A few questions:
ISO settings; I can't find any info in the Thea for SketchUp manual to explain its effects. [you suggest a setting of 400, JQL suggest 1200 and the Sketchup 2014 for Arc Viz book suggests 1600 [interior render] so I'm a little confused as to its role. [As for shutter and f number setting]

Another thing; do you guys use advacnes camera settings to locate camera? Just wondering if I'm going to locate an LEM behind the camera then is it by trial and error or purposely placed?

:thumb: :thumb:


Yes I use advanced camera tools but not from sketchup, from thom thom. It opens up a tool inside the Camera menu wich is called Advanced. Click that and all your cameras are fully controleable, but not in meters.

However you can also locate it fairly and assign an invisible tag to the emitter material. In Thea studio you hide it under the left model entities menu. In T4SU you have the ability of creating a preset material for emitters that allows you to hide.

Now I didn't remember I recommended 1200 iso. If it was a real camera and I wanted a grainier image I think that would do it. But what you can do is mix the effects of the ISO+SHUTTERSPEED+FNUMBER until you get it the way you want it.

In real cameras those affect blur, fov and grain. In thea it's just lighter brighter. I would advice you to lower the brightness to a point you can see all the features you want and then save as EXR, open it in a 32bit depth capable editor and then adust levels. That is my main recommendation for Thea's output as I think it's the only way to fully control the final result.
0
User avatar
JQL 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:10 am

Got it; will go and have a play around....

Thanks again! :ecstatic:
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JQL » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:29 am

I never use emitters. I simply let it cook longer. I don't have the time/patience to set them and I'm always taking "shots" of the model. Also my models never get clear because there's simply too much info to render. I set no single scene model.

Basically I click the button let the sun pour in and wait.
0
User avatar
JQL 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:49 pm

Here's a bit of an update after playing around with settings:

Outdoor

Tavern_Outdoor.jpg


Seems to look ok but for the life of me I can't get emitters to brighten up the inside space of the roof area.


Indoor

Tavern_Indoor.jpg


The outside is still a bit burnt out but I think the lighting inside seems to be close. They're only 1600 pixel [16:9] basic renders as I'm only concerned about the light levels at the moment....


Any thoughts?
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby rspierenburg » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:18 pm

I still think you were closer with the blowout in the original photos. Take a look at this site http://taguephoto.com/album/homes/ every interior daytime shot with a window has the exterior blown out to almost pure white. The only way to photograph otherwise is to bracket the exposure and make an HDR image.

Mind you it purely comes down to personal taste.

Rob
1

rspierenburg 
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby Pixero » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:14 pm

I agree. If youre going for "photo" real outside will be blown out when interior is correctly exposed.
0
User avatar
Pixero 
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:39 am

Cheers, guys. So I guess expecting to use a HDR for outside entourage when doing an internal render is out of the question....?
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby JQL » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:28 pm

I guess that is not it's main purpose, unless you're dealing with far away entourage or an HDRI for an object like a car or something of the sort.

However, for any render the hdri lighting is very different thant the pysical sky. More subtle (or not so subtle) variations on color. That is the main usefulness for interiors too. Renders without post production also work better with HDRI, because of the natural sky feeling.

The best for entourage would Match Photo + HQ 3D assets + Post production
0
User avatar
JQL 
Premium Member
Premium Member
 

Re: Bad sunlight

Postby utiler » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:18 am

Thanks mate, I'm continuing to learn thanks to you guys!

I also found that when doing an internal render I couldn't create a hidden emitter that would light the space. Not sure why when made invisible, the emitter just wouldn't light up.
0
purpose/expression/purpose/....
User avatar
utiler 
Top SketchUcator
 

SketchUcation One-Liner Adverts

by Ad Machine » 5 minutes ago



Ad Machine 
Robot
 

Next


 

Return to Thea

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Visit our sponsors: