Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby baz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:52 am

Dave R wrote:
Hazza wrote:If I wanted to seperate it into 4 pieces so that I could take measurements I could not do so without many many hours of SU work.


Well twenty one minutes, anyway. ;)
;)
min_chest_of_drawers[2].jpg



Lol.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Hazza » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:21 am

Dave R wrote:
Hazza wrote:If I wanted to seperate it into 4 pieces so that I could take measurements I could not do so without many many hours of SU work.


Well twenty one minutes, anyway. ;)

Dave Dave Dave...... you may have been able to seperate them in 20 minutes but we are talking about my SU skills and experience aren't we? ;)

I did exagerate on the hours and hours but I think he now understands what is required. The model may be obvious to a woodworker, but I am not. I am a modeler that does woodwork models, that difference in emphasis means it has to be obvious.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby baz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:56 am

Hazza wrote:
Dave R wrote:
Hazza wrote:If I wanted to seperate it into 4 pieces so that I could take measurements I could not do so without many many hours of SU work.


Well twenty one minutes, anyway. ;)

Dave Dave Dave...... you may have been able to seperate them in 20 minutes but we are talking about my SU skills and experience aren't we? ;)

I did exagerate on the hours and hours but I think he now understands what is required. The model may be obvious to a woodworker, but I am not. I am a modeler that does woodwork models, that difference in emphasis means it has to be obvious.


ok hazza, you are starting to piss me off, I am not 'he' I am baz or bazza or hey you. I like what you is tryin to do: get collection of good models which can actually be built in the realworld. A fine idea. I am actual, I make these things,
bit of respect please mate.

re the model, which is what it is.
Dave has fixed it I think, how do we upload his to mine as an update? Im a bit new at this warehouse stuff, I will take direction.
baz xx
I started to have a go at separating (sic) the dovetails, hoping to do it faster than Dave but got quite confused, he am da man!

baz.

ps I'm missing durant.


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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Gaieus » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:21 pm

Relax Baz, I don't think Hazza wanted to hurt you.

As for updatinfg your model in the warehouse as well as at least giving some credits to Dave, I suggest that you use the "Share" function (link above the priview window there) with him. HE can then update your model - which will remain yours - and be listed there as a contributor. You will need his email he uses for the 3D WH for this so that you can invite him.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:28 pm

Hello Gai,

I just sent Baz the modified model. Baz can do with it as he pleases. I told him he doesn't need to give me credit. I didn't do anything Baz couldn't do. (I guess I'm assuming Baz is a he but I coiuld be wrong.)

Hazza, perhaps you could take it easy on the exaggeration because it doesn't come across as such in print.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby baz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:53 pm

thanks for your pm dave. im calm now.

gaius, Im not hurt about hazza's comments, Im offended, which is different. (actually its his lack of comment which has my goat!)

hazza knows nothing, on his own admission, about woodworking, and very little about design or modeling judgeing by his warehouse offerings and he also makes disconcerting comments about not being able to take measurements off my model without having to spend time understanding how the project is put together.
I think I understand why he insists on clean models, dont we all, but c,mon, be flexible, how long did it take dave to 3d my dovetails. (21 minutes, I think.)
I am a bit interested in the woodworkers forum in order to exchange ideas. The woodworking collection seems like a good place to start, but........

What about this for comment?
pair of gates I designed and made for the aust embassy in saudi arabia. Interesting project, no representation of living things allowed cos of local culture, had to cope with 40c plus to minus 10c temps. had to be virtually no maintenence, cos nobody would. The design tries to represent the vastness of my country, thats about the spacing of the sticks, and also the sand and mountain forms that we all share, in the height of the verticals. Its 4x 40x20 qld red cedar screwed ogether with inlaid silver let into the timber, 600 of the buggers, handmade hardware to my design by Daniel Jenkyns. Its all still there as far as i know.
happy for anyone to formalize the model and also add the missing diagonal 12mm sterling silver squares to the timber.

I dont unnerstan the collaborative side of the warehouse yet, will take more direction.

baz---

baz

ps I'm six foot 5 inches, weighing 100 kilos. and im not gay. ( although pretending to be has got me into some brilliant parties.)
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Last edited by baz on Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Gaieus » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:02 pm

Okya, hurt or offend... I am not a native speaker so am allowed to mix synonims (although in this particular case I did actually "feel" that it was not the most proper word to use) ;)

Anyway, how does this gay thing come to here? :shock:
I am not that tall and not that "heavy" either (so our "build" should be similar) but I haven't ever thought about it that way!
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby baz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:23 pm

ok you got me there,
it was just that dave coulnt tell what gender i was.
It has never occurred to me that people wouldnt know.
but it does now.
baz(not gay but I have read robinson crusoe)za
xxx
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Gaieus » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:26 pm

Ah, I see. Actually, without knowing someone name, it may be hard sometimes.

True that woodworkers (or ironmongers) are rarely women but you shouldn't generalise - especially nowadays when in the US there are no firemen or policemen or chairmen nowadays - just "persons" :D

If I didn't have an image of myself up here, some IndoEuropean language speakers could even thing by my name (Csaba - ending in a) that I am female, too.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby baz » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:41 pm

I love your current tag:
"Life is like the waistcoat of a summer suit. Short and pointless..."
Sound a bit european tho.

at the risk of going seriously off topic here, i always thought that your avatar was of a strange man looking lecherously at an attractive woman (or man) just off screen.
I never imagined for a moment that that was you, (just kidding)


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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Gaieus » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:53 pm

baz wrote:I love your current tag:
"Life is like the waistcoat of a summer suit. Short and pointless..."
Sound a bit european tho.

Indeed it is; the very last line of this novel (go to the Postscript and scroll UP)

One of my most favourite authors when it comes to comedy. Not sure however that it gets through the translation corretly.
at the risk of going seriously off topic here, i always thought that your avatar was of a strange man looking lecherously at an attractive woman (or man) just off screen...

Yeah, that's in my local Corner Bar (it is areally on a corner) and I am talking to somebody there :D
_______

Hey Hazza, if you also feel we have gone way OT, let me know and I'll split the topic! Sorry for hijacking it ;)
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Hazza » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:50 am

baz wrote:hazza knows nothing, on his own admission, about woodworking, and very little about design or modeling judgeing by his warehouse offerings and he also makes disconcerting comments about not being able to take measurements off my model without having to spend time understanding how the project is put together.

My "he" was not a deliberate or intentional attempt to p*ss you off, the above paragraph is.

  1. I did not say I know "nothing", I said I know little, big difference
  2. The models I do are NOT my design, follow the URL's and tell THEM that their design is crap
  3. The collection has a standard, if your model does not meet the standard then it does not get added, simple
  4. Despite your deliberate personal insults if your model meets the standard it will be added
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:35 am

Hazza, how come you've never fixed the bird feeder model? I'm just curious. Your bunk beds, picnic table, garden bridge, dog house and birdhouse exhibit the same problems.

I think since your goal is to have models that are drawn such that they could be used to build from, you ought to include proper grain direction in the models if they are painted with wood grain materials. And component axes should be correct so that the cutlist plugin will yield proper information for purchasing the materials and building the models.

The gazebo isn't drawn to meet your criteria of each piece of wood being a separate component. I wonder why that is.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby baz » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:04 am

hazza, my apologies, I was rude.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby peweuk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:20 am

And component axes should be correct so that the cutlist plugin will yield proper information for purchasing the materials and building the models.


A point I mentioned in an earlier post.

There are a lot of woodworkers who are not computer 'experts' and do not have the time to learn CAD, even in it's simplest form, to create their own drawings/models. So a library a catalogue of useful and popular projects which can be 'easily' modified by them rather than them having to start from scratch would be welcomed by many such people.

However the models have to be 'technically' correct otherwise people lose interest very quickly.

Ultimately a site with catalogues of projects with instructions/information to help the user work with or modify them would be the ideal - although who would have the time to manage such a project :?:
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Hazza » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:38 am

Dave R wrote:Hazza, how come you've never fixed the bird feeder model? I'm just curious.

I think since your goal is to have models that are drawn such that they could be used to build from, you ought to include proper grain direction in the models if they are painted with wood grain materials. And component axes should be correct so that the cutlist plugin will yield proper information for purchasing the materials and building the models.

The gazebo isn't drawn to meet your criteria of each piece of wood being a separate component. I wonder why that is.

Oh dam someone spotted it, those models were some of my first, now I know more about modeling I should really fix them up. You will notice that I stopped putting material on the models because getting the grain direction the right way around is time consuming and cosmetic... then again it does make the models look prettier.

Which part of the Gazebo? Bruce? ;)
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Hazza » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:50 am

Hazza wrote:Which part of the Gazebo? Bruce? ;)

Oh god, I see it now, the floorboards and the roof planks. I think it will be easier to remove it from the collection than try and seperate each into a component.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Hazza » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:56 am

Hazza wrote:....be easier to remove it from the collection....

Actually it's not in the collection..

Dave, what gave you the idea that is was in the collection?
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:10 am

It came up in the collection that I got to by clicking on the link in your signature. I can't help that it was included there.

Grain direction can be useful in some cases for understanding how a piece is constructed. For example how should the grain run on a cabriole leg so that you don't end up with a weak area due to short cross grain? Which direction should the grain run on a table top? (The answer to that one is, it depends. It depends upon the size of the top and the method of construction.) If a beginning woodworker were to try to use your models to build from, an indication of grain orientation would be useful information.

Improperly aligned axes are the reason you had difficulty orienting the materials. If the axes are aligned correctly on the component, setting grain orientation is not difficult or time consuming. If you have to rotate a material after it is applied to the faces ina component, sample the material for other components that require the same orientation. No need to rotate it on every component.

What did you do with the birdfeeder model I sent you? I already corrected that one for you. You could at least replace the one on the warehouse with that one. No need to give me credit. I'm not interested in that.

I'm not trying to be critical but it appears from your collection that you were applying a double standard to models allowed into your collection.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Hazza » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:39 am

Dave R wrote:It came up in the collection that I got to by clicking on the link in your signature. I can't help that it was included there.

What did you do with the birdfeeder model I sent you? I already corrected that one for you. You could at least replace the one on the warehouse with that one. No need to give me credit. I'm not interested in that.

I'm not trying to be critical but it appears from your collection that you were applying a double standard to models allowed into your collection.

Oh ok, the link in my signature is to all of my models, not all of my models are up to the standard to be included in the SketchuCation Woodworking collection. No double standards, models that meet the criteria are added, those that don't (like the gazebo) are not added.

I got the Bird feeder but for some reason did not upload the one you corrected for me, I have now. That's why your comment about it confused me, I looked at the model that I have on my PC and it was fine. Same with the picnic table, I had already fixed it but not uploaded the fixed one.

I tried fixing the garden bridge but I could not get the material used on the railings to look right so I removed all materials from the entire model.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:24 pm

Why not fix the component axes on the bunk beds and bridge models?
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby peweuk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:17 pm

Whilst on the subject of axis and material orientation I have noticed something since I recently started using Cutlist output and wondered if anyone has an answer.

It seems that SU treats length and width based on a convention of specifying the length as the longest of the axis, which is a problem.

For example in the attached file I have two panels (one being a streched copy of the other). When I look at the dimensions (in the Get Dimensions plugin or the Cutlist one) the dimension that SU treats as the 'length' is the Y axis on one and the Z axis on the other.

For material purposes, the grain will be shown correctly in the drawing, but any output will be incorrect as the grain should be running 'lengthways' (the Z axis in the example) in both and SU has swapped the length orientation in the larger panel2.

It seems that changing the axis has no effect on this and wonder if there is another setting I am missing which will take care of this issue.

If anyone knows the answer I would really appreciate a pointer in the right direction.

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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:04 pm

I'll have a chat with my friend who wrote the CutList plugin.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby peweuk » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:18 pm

Thanks Dave.

I'd be interested in any thoughts he has.

However I don't think it is a plug-in issue.
I think it is the way that SU allocates its definition of length and width depending on which is the greater :?
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:20 pm

You may be right on that. I sent him an e-mail and I will report ASAP.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby brandy20 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:19 pm

Dave, I've never thougth about grain direction in but reading this topic I understand how important it can be. So, do you mean that you set the axis every time you make a component?
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:48 pm

brandy20 wrote:Dave, I've never thougth about grain direction in but reading this topic I understand how important it can be. So, do you mean that you set the axis every time you make a component?


No I don't set the axis direction everytime I make a component. It is initially set automatically when the component is made and aligns with the global axes. People have problems with axis alignment when they make components in one orientation and then rotae them to put them in place. For example if you were to draw a skirting board for a table with it laying flat on the ground plane and then make the component before rotating and moving it into position between the legs, the axis alignment would be incorrect. I draw the parts in place in a project instead of moving the parts into place after drawing them. This reduces the work load and I don't have to be checking dimensions all the time. If the table legs are placed correctly for the size of the table, all I have to worry about with the skirting board is that it fills the space between the legs. I don't need to know how long that part is at this phase of the drawing. there's also no worries about accurately placing the component.

Sometimes though, the axis alignment does need to be corrected. As an example, draw a rafter board for a roof. Draw it in the orientation it would be in one the roof. Make that a component and apply a material to the faces of the component. YOu'll notice that on the sides, the material runs either vertically or horizontally depending upon the material's original orientation. Select the component and run cutlist on it while you're at it and see how much wood it says you'll need to make the rafter. Undo the material, correct the axis alignement for the component so that one axis runs along the long edge of the rafter. Now open it and apply the material. It may run across the side but it'll run at 90° to the side instead of vertically. This is quickly repaired by right clicking on the face, choosing Texture>Position, right click again and choose Rotate>90°. Run the cutlist again and you'll see you also get an accurate report of the amount of wood required to make the rafter.

Long winded. I hope it makes some sense.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby peweuk » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:37 am

Dave R wrote:Run the cutlist again and you'll see you also get an accurate report of the amount of wood required to make the rafter.


The problem with cutlist is it ignores the x, y, z axis for determining the analysis of the parts.

For example:
Make a panel 500mm wide, 700mm high and 20mm deep. Run cutlist and the width, height and material thickness are correct.

Now stretch the width to 1000mm and run cutlist again - you will see that the width and height are now reversed in Cutlist.
This makes it inaccurate for correct parts listing if you have a Dynamic component where the user can alter the width of the cabinet and does this so that the width starts at less than the height, but is enlarged to a width greater than the height.

I wrote to the author about this, and he is considering changing the way cutlist determines the width and height based on the X and Z axis - when he returns to doing coding as he is busy elsewhere at present.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby Dave R » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:32 am

I understand your point. The flip side is that you can't count on people to draw things with the axes oriented correctly so just relying on the axes orientation in the component won't always work either. Still it's a good plugin.

Dynamic Components are problematic for some woodworking-related stuff too. For example, it would be nice to make cabinet door parts dynamic so it would be a quick thing to change sizes. If you want an accurate cutlist, you'd want the length of the tenons included in the rails and the length of the tongues on the edges of the panel as well. Resizing in Dynamic Components occurs via scaling. So making a door wider results in longer tenons which you wouldn't really do in practice.

You can split the rail component into three parts, the ends and a center. Then set up the DC so that the center section gets scaled and the ends get moved as needed. That prevents the tenons from being scaled but a cutlist will report three smaller pieces where there should only be one larger part.

Oh well, if it ain't one thing, it's your mother.
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Re: Invitation to the SketchUcation collection

Postby peweuk » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:13 am

Dave R wrote:You can split the rail component into three parts, the ends and a center. Then set up the DC so that the center section gets scaled and the ends get moved as needed. That prevents the tenons from being scaled but a cutlist will report three smaller pieces where there should only be one larger part.


I had this problem too - obviously 'cos that's how it works. ;)


However, try adding a keyword (such as 'ignore') to the component name for the tennon parts, and then in the cutlist window add the word 'ignore' to the 'parts list box'. The parts are now ignored from the cutting info and added to the 'parts' table.

I raised this with the author who is also considering another request I made which will hopefully overcome this problem. That is to add a facility where certain key words are ignored from both the cutting list and the parts list.

Dave R wrote:The flip side is that you can't count on people to draw things with the axes oriented correctly so just relying on the axes orientation in the component won't always work either. Still it's a good plugin.


I agree - it is a great plugin.
As far as the axis are concerned, it is a problem if people draw them incorrectly, but if the DC are already created (which I am in the process of doing) then hopefully it won't be a problem. :)
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