SketchUp Nurbs

Got an idea to improve SketchUp?

SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:55 am

before you read this, remind yourself, that it is placed in the Wish List - therefore only a wish (and admittedly one that is as far in an uncertain future as one can be).

I would like to have a SketchUp Nurbs modeller - that is I think of a modelling program that combines the easy workflow of our current SketchUp with the advantages of a nurbs modeller.

for those who are not farmiliar with nurbs (I myself don't know much about nurbs):
but basically there are two types of constructing geometry - with nurbs or with polygons.
the polygon-method creates forms (even organic ones), as the name says, with polygons. a circle for example consists of many segments that form the shape; the more segments, the smoother the form (SketchUp default for a circle is 24).
the nurbs-method defines forms via mathematical equations. for example "y=x" will create a straight line, "y=x^2" will draw a curve that moves upward with increasing speed.

a more complicated nurbs-curve is put together of several such equations. the point where one equation ends and a new one defines the further shape of the curve is called a control vertex


the big advantage of nurbs shapes is, that even with only 3 control points a curve will look perfectly smooth whereas a polygon shape needs loads of polygons to achieve the same effect.


I don't know if my idea makes sense. but I would love to see a program, where you start drawing, like you do in SketchUp. so if you draw four lines that build the outline of a rectangle, the face will be closed.

you can even push/pull faces.
but while the edges apear as ordinary polygons, they are in truth very simple (straight) nurbs curves.
if you now select an edge and activate the nurbs-edit mode, control-vertexes will appear, that allow you to manipulate the edge as a curve.
you can add or delete control-vertexes at will (as it is possible with fredo's BezierCurveTool).
like that you can create smooth, organic forms easily without giving up the advantages of SketchUps easy workflow.

so if you select an edge and move it without entering the nurbs-edit mode, it will behave as a stiff edge as we are used to it right now. (example on the left)


at the moment we can almost do nurbs-like modelling with all the great ruby plugins, like BezierCurves, Subdivide&Smooth or FreeFormDeformator.
but a real nurbs-based SketchUp version would be a wonderful tool - and we didn't need to worry about polycount that much ;)

what do you think? great idea? bad idea?
would be delighted to hear your opinion, crits, suggestions...
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby Mr S » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:34 pm

I think its a great idea.
But are you hoping for simplified version of Rhino?
I haven't used it myself but I'm guessing it has many of the features you mention.
Visit: http://gallery.rhino3d.com/Default.asp?language=&g=5

Regards
Mr S
=======
0

Mr S 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby Stinkie » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:08 pm

A simplified version of Rhino would be MoI.
0
User avatar
Stinkie 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby kwistenbiebel » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:31 pm

Again a WONDERFUL SUGGESTION Jakob! :thumb:
...and a very clear explanation of Nurbs as well.

Can't wait for one of our Ruby Gods to jump on it.
0

kwistenbiebel 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby pilou » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:36 pm

That yet exist :roll: Moment of Inspiration with Skp export ;)
Maybe not with all that you show above :mrgreen:

And maybe all that you describe is in the 7? :enlight:
0
Frenchy Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
Speedy Galerie
User avatar
pilou 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby kwistenbiebel » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:44 pm

Pilou wrote:That yet exist :roll: Moment of Inspiration with Skp export ;)
Maybe not with all that you show above :mrgreen:

And maybe all that you describe is in the 7? :enlight:


Hey Frenchy, as you have a direct line to the developer of MOI: wouldn't it be a nice idea to ask him to make a 'mini-MOI' as a commercial Sketchup plugin?
0

kwistenbiebel 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:50 pm

I imagine it as a merge between polygon- and nurbs workflow.

as far as I know at present you allways start with volumes or at least faces in nurbs modelling.

this new way makes use of SketchUps edge-based approach, which in my opinion makes it far easier to start sketching up rough shapes.
you still could use the program exactly the way you do right now.

basically SketchUp Nurbs creates geometry as we are allready used to it, but allways combined with a functionality that in some way the FreeFormDeformator gives us - only that you are able to dynamically add or delete FFD's control vertexes and apply changes directly to the geometry, rather than to a group.

but I definitely have to have a look at MOl, sounds very interesting...
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby Stinkie » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:52 pm

kwistenbiebel wrote:wouldn't it be a nice idea to ask him to make a 'mini-MOI' as a commercial Sketchup plugin?


He'd be undermining the position of his core product if he did, wouldn't he?
0
User avatar
Stinkie 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby pilou » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:57 pm

@Kwist : Moi is yet like a mini "Plug" of Rhino and so many other ;)
I don't believe that it can be more small but your suggestion is recorded :D
0
Frenchy Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
Speedy Galerie
User avatar
pilou 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:01 pm

another short example for the difference between the current version and SketchUp nurbs. and remember. all the three cubes have been drawn with lines and extruded with push/pull, then the top face rotated 90 degrees arround the centre... ;)

0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby remus » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:02 pm

Cool idea plot, and id certainly welcome it in SU, but i think its a bit more complicated than you make out.

One area that could get very sticky is changing between nurbs and polygons, as it is pretty much a one way street, if you want to maintain proper NURBS surfaces, anyway. I can imagine this causing a lot of annoyance, with models that you think are finished, have been converted in to polys but then need editing.

I reckon youd also need some very clear way of distinguishing between NURBS stuff and poly stuff, otherwise your models could get very confusing.

A quick thought: perhaps all nurbs surfaces could act as proxies, kind of like subd and smooth, and the proxy could be kept on a different layer, so basically all the geometry would be polys, but you would have NURBS surfaces controlling the polys.
0

remus 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:33 pm

oh, I am afraid I didn't make myself clear enough there:

all the geometry consists of nurbs - but SketchUp nurbs lets you manipulate it exactly the same way you handle polygons in the normal version.
so even an edge is in fact a simple nurbs-curve.

and unlike all nurbs-modellers I know, SUN will automatically create a face, when several nurbs-curves that lie in one plane, are closed...
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby solo » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:03 pm

:thumb: I like this thinking.

I remember when .... viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1782&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=nurbs&start=30
0
http://www.solos-art.com

If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.
User avatar
solo 
Global Moderator
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby Hazza » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:02 am

Of all the whining and b*tching I have read about SU (poly count, multi core this, 64 bit that... pffft) this suggestion is the only one that has made me look at the current version of SU as limited. This would put SU head and shoulders above where it is now.

I can imagine all sorts of possibilitys if Google implemented this. To the begineer SU would behave exactly as it does now. As they learned and grew they could add Nurbs control points and learn how to manipulate them.
0
See all of my SketchUp models here.

Hazza 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:05 am

of course now we could do with some detailed information about nurbs models. does anyone know how a nurbs model behaves in terms of filesize? or does it need more graphic card power, more/less ram, better processor?

my guess is that it behaves pretty much the same for rectangular objects but brings a huge improvement when entering the realms of curved (organic) shapes.
I may be completely wrong though
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby pilou » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:01 am

The native 3dm format of nurbs is very consuming!
But you can compress it with a 30% factor

Here a 3DM file (compressed 900 kb ) original 3 Megas : Test by Steph 3D
And the direct SKP file 20 000 polys (but you can ask more of few polys at the convertor as you want)
(compressed 1.5 mega original 3.7 megas)

Render Podium with Biebels' settings with any regulates except a reflection :)

or does it need more graphic card power, more/less ram, better processor?

Depending of what nurbs progs you use ;)
Moi can run on an very old comput and video card!!! more 5 years old! (SU works fine too :fro: !
So for this one Memory is the more imortant ;)
0
Frenchy Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
Speedy Galerie
User avatar
pilou 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby RayOchoa » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:18 am

@ Paris, you make this seam so easy. I love the way you do all these presentations which make one believe that that is actually possible. :D :thumb:
0
CaR DeSiGnS bY mE
http://ray-ochoa.com
User avatar
RayOchoa 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:28 am

thanks, Ray
unfortunately my vivid imagination doen't go beyond Photoshop. I have no idea of programming. and this SketchUp Nurbs (in short SUN :enlight: ) is something not even our ruby masters can achieve for it is a completely different technology.

and I have to admit, I fear there is some huge drawback of nurbs. otherwise, why do polygons exist in the first place? they have to have their own advantages. I should do some reading about nurbs and then report here, what I understood - so the dream of SUN lives on :)
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby Bruell » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:25 pm

Hi, I think this is a great idea, and should be doable. :D
My input to this tool is, to keep the models clean, you can start with NURBS then turn it to poly's, since the benefit of NURBS lyes in the creation. And I would like to see 2 rail sweeps and all the good stuff that comes with the NURBS tool set.

And with this could come real circles, that stay round when you zoom closer.
0

Bruell 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:20 pm

Bruell wrote:And with this could come real circles, that stay round when you zoom closer.

and the great thing is the versatility. at the moment if you draw a circle in SketchUp and delete a segment of it, the information of the original curve is gone forever.
with SUN (SketchUp Nurbs) you not only the information of a circle is kept (because the formula for the curve is still that of a circle, except with manipulated start- and end-point), but you can even change a straight line you created with the LineTool turn into a circle by entering the NurbsEditMode:



so if you select any elliptic shape and click the "simplify" button often enough, it will eventually turn into a perfect circle. if you use the simplify too to "paint" on certain parts of a curve, only these parts will smooth out...

of course it is dangerous to loose yourself in the mere number of functions that could be useful - if you are not careful you end up having something like almighty Maya, that can do anything you want and takes years to master.
important is to keep the main interface simple, to reduce the number of tools as much as possible and keep them intuitive, like SketchUp did with the copy function - instead of introducing a seperate tool they integrated it into the move tool. this approach has to be kept in mind when shaping SketchUp Nurbs.
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby chango70 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:18 pm

Isn't Bezier Curve and Bubble Skin script able to approximate Nurb Modelling?
0
Last edited by chango70 on Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

chango70 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:12 pm

well, NURBS means "Non-uniform rational B-spline" and fredo's bezier curves are splines. I guess, that soapskin bubble works in a similar way.
as far as I know they both use mathematical algorythms like nurbs and later transform it into polygons.

so just imagine what our ruby-geeks can come up with if you give them a SketchUp that is solely based on nurbs!

I have something in mind, where I don't know, if it already exists and I saw it somewhere or if it is my own idea:

Imagine you create a curved surface in SUN, calculated with nurbs technique. it is supposed to be a rocky, uneven ground. you could apply a material with displacement map, that creates the rough surface during the render process. but you want to see the result while modelling, perhaps even interact with the uneven surface. instead of modelling it yourself, you apply a displacement filter preset to the surface, that recalculates the whole surface, because it is a nurbs element, you don't have to translate it to polygons every time you make a change.
thus you can easily change the overall shape by manipulating the original curves of the surface, while the displacement filter will adopt to the changes.

0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby chango70 » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:11 am

:shock: Sounds great! I'd imagine whoever can do this and indeed does it should get paid.
0

chango70 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby minguinhirigue » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:44 pm

This is quite a big idea, but implicit geometry (NURBS, Blobs, and other forms that could be redraw from control points, lines and faces) is really far from what sketchup is doing today. However, there are a lot of soft which are actually doing what you are talking about :
- Rhino 3D
- Moi 3D
- Bonzai 3D soon

But, I recognize that Sketchup interface is easer than Rhino one... And Rhino or Moi do not have any free version. So this could be a great improvement for SU7 : providing a free version which keep a clear interface and user-friendly workflow, while allowing edition on complex NURBS and spline.

Note that if anybody want to model a NURBS the way it is suggested in the first message, then it could be usefull to implement T-spline instead.
T-spline are more powerfull than spline if you want to edit the object in the way you do with a polymodeler : extruding, pulling, stretching, adding details all the time. Just have a look here.

For those who are searching, there was a quick job on Bezier surface plugins for sketchup : http://groups.google.com/group/Ruby-API ... 3b1f7124e5

PS : Chango70, plot-paris, I guess Soap-skin-Bubble don't use Nurbs or spline maths, there is probably just a relaxation calculus of a fixed grid of points, so it's hard maths and physics, but not the same that defines NURBS and Spline.
0

minguinhirigue 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby pilou » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:11 pm

But, I recognize that Sketchup interface is easer than Rhino one

Sure but Moi (the little kid of Rhino :D has the same easer use than Sketchup :fro:
0
Frenchy Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
Speedy Galerie
User avatar
pilou 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby plot-paris » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:58 pm

thanks for pointing us to t-splines, minguinhirigue.
that sounds really good. so that is the way forward - and the way the organic SketchUp version has to go ;)
0
User avatar
plot-paris 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby chango70 » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:36 pm

I'd be happy to pay a limb if a Nurb or T-Spline modeler can be as intuitive as SU.
0

chango70 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby remus » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:40 pm

Chango, sounds like MoI is the thing for you.

And you dont even have to give away body parts.

http://moi3d.com/
0

remus 
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby pilou » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:56 pm

moi not have any free version

Moi has an "infinite" Demo version but you can't save anything! :ugeek:
So cool for infinite training :enlight:
(use key "Print screen" can make some crazzy image anyway) ;)
0
Frenchy Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
Speedy Galerie
User avatar
pilou 
Top SketchUcator
 

Re: SketchUp Nurbs

Postby icetroll » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:56 am

i use various cad products and have dabbled in some of the modelling programs including 3ds Max and rhino. i totally agree that having a sketchup interface to allow nurbs modelling would make creation of complex 3d geometry much more intuitive. it is far nicer to manipulate geometry using realtime tools such as push / pull or follow me than delving into complex dialog boxes and altering parameters that are barely understandable at best. graphics products that operate more like manual drafting techniques are far more intuitive and are a more direct emphasis of the creative impulse. numbers get in the way of true creativity unless you are gifted in that faculty. it seems like sketchup could truly start a revolution in graphics if it supported nurbs modelling...just a thought
0

icetroll 
 

SketchUcation One-Liner Adverts

by Ad Machine » 5 minutes ago



Ad Machine 
Robot
 

Next


 

Return to SketchUp Feature Requests

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests