A new home for SketchUp

[BIMMER]

I feel sorry for the SketchUp team (or anyone being acquired by Trimble). I worked for a company that was acquired by these guys and let me tell you things will change in a big way and not for the better. I hope the SketchUp experience is different of course, but our company was in the middle of a pretty heavy acquisition spree by Trimble, and I was visible to a lot during that time.

Trimble is excellent at acquisition’s, that's primarily how they fuel growth. They are however culturally deficient when it comes to integrating the technology and people that come along with an acquisition into the larger operations of a segment, division or the company as a whole, it's just not part of their DNA.

Their standard operating procedure is to close the acquisition to much fanfare, have a rally the troops meeting with the affected staff, and begin to make subtle changes (updated branding, alter legalese, change payment processing, alter credit terms, etc.). Within 9 to 12 months the acquired entity will go through a reduction in force of some kind to improve operating income (all areas are typically impacted).

Management will be driven to increase top line (drive revenue) at all costs, and improve bottom line by maintaining required operating income levels and increasing margin primarily through layering additional work responsibilities on remaining employees and limiting any additional headcount for as long as possible. Additional hires for example have to be approved by the CEO directly and can take months to approve, if they're ever approved.

During this time the entity will have to work within the bureaucratic nightmare that is Trimble corporate. This is where the dysfunctional family comes in. Legal, Finance and HR stay focused on "protecting the business". In fact, to corporate you’re the enemy. Managers will have to deal with insane credit policies, overly protective lawyers that dictate the terms of a sales contract, and HR staff with a focus on "documenting issues" (referred to as the charm squad internally) to ensure the company is safe from disgruntled employee litigation.

General Managers wield a lot of power; they manage their divisions/segments with a strict focus on milking as much money (top and bottom line) as possible within as short a period as possible of the acquisition. Career development, product growth, service to the client, operational efficiency, all becomes low to no priority. In many respects, the General Managers are like absentee landlords, they come around close to the end of the quarter to collect the rent (revenue targets). If the rent looks like it'll be paid in full (targets attained), they will leave you alone, if it looks like you're short on your rent, they'll provide you "help" to make sure you do pay in full. Growth is expected quarter over quarter, and year over year, regardless of seasonality.

Destructive personalities are not dealt with, especially from Sales Managers. Sales carries a VERY BIG STICK, and you'll deal with some Sales Managers that are not just complete morons, but are very destructive to employee morale. Yet, they will hold a lot of sway with the General Manager of a division because they're the one's responsible for bringing in the dollars. In many respects, it appears that the General Managers surround themselves with people that could never hope to grow into their role, so they don’t have the risk of ever losing it until they’ve moved up to a Vice President/executive level.

After a while, arbitrary dates will be set for product releases to ensure revenue targets can be attained for a given quarter, with compromises made to ensure the date is achieved.

All the while, the original culture will slowly become "Trimbleized" and good talent will start to flee in droves (compare the pre and post acquisition turnover rate and you'll be shocked at the trend).

Trimble is terrified of Autodesk, and this would be the main driver behind the SketchUp acquisition. Expect the "FREE" version to garner less attention over the next 24 months as focus shifts to ramping up revenue (either through integration of the SketchUp IP to shore up some deficient products or by driving new releases of the product to grow market share).

While they'll promise the sun, the moon and the stars during the courting process, you'll be lucky if they deliver on a third of it after 12 to 24 months. Good luck, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[Mark H.]

Just read through the - Transfer of licenses and personal data to Trimble - here, http://sketchup.google.com/usernotice.html

This paragraph has me a little confused!

Following up on several of the posts about last week's user notice, I wanted to let everyone know that the Trimble's Terms of Service for the 3D Warehouse will be available to read before the "closing date." This will give everyone who is interested a chance to review the new Terms. With any luck, they'll provide more fodder for discussion

[Jeff Hammond]

sweet!

[andybot]

@Bimmer, dear god, I've got the star wars imperial march in my head as I read your post. I hope this forum keeps the spirit of sketchup alive if Trimble is what you say.

Edit: thanks Pete for copying the post, I'd meant to. Yes, time will tell.

[solo]

I feel sorry for the SketchUp team (or anyone being acquired by Trimble). I worked for a company that was acquired by these guys and let me tell you things will change in a big way and not for the better. I hope the SketchUp experience is different of course, but our company was in the middle of a pretty heavy acquisition spree by Trimble, and I was visible to a lot during that time.

Trimble is excellent at acquisition’s, that's primarily how they fuel growth. They are however culturally deficient when it comes to integrating the technology and people that come along with an acquisition into the larger operations of a segment, division or the company as a whole, it's just not part of their DNA.

Their standard operating procedure is to close the acquisition to much fanfare, have a rally the troops meeting with the affected staff, and begin to make subtle changes (updated branding, alter legalese, change payment processing, alter credit terms, etc.). Within 9 to 12 months the acquired entity will go through a reduction in force of some kind to improve operating income (all areas are typically impacted).

Management will be driven to increase top line (drive revenue) at all costs, and improve bottom line by maintaining required operating income levels and increasing margin primarily through layering additional work responsibilities on remaining employees and limiting any additional headcount for as long as possible. Additional hires for example have to be approved by the CEO directly and can take months to approve, if they're ever approved.

During this time the entity will have to work within the bureaucratic nightmare that is Trimble corporate. This is where the dysfunctional family comes in. Legal, Finance and HR stay focused on "protecting the business". In fact, to corporate you’re the enemy. Managers will have to deal with insane credit policies, overly protective lawyers that dictate the terms of a sales contract, and HR staff with a focus on "documenting issues" (referred to as the charm squad internally) to ensure the company is safe from disgruntled employee litigation.

General Managers wield a lot of power; they manage their divisions/segments with a strict focus on milking as much money (top and bottom line) as possible within as short a period as possible of the acquisition. Career development, product growth, service to the client, operational efficiency, all becomes low to no priority. In many respects, the General Managers are like absentee landlords, they come around close to the end of the quarter to collect the rent (revenue targets). If the rent looks like it'll be paid in full (targets attained), they will leave you alone, if it looks like you're short on your rent, they'll provide you "help" to make sure you do pay in full. Growth is expected quarter over quarter, and year over year, regardless of seasonality.

Destructive personalities are not dealt with, especially from Sales Managers. Sales carries a VERY BIG STICK, and you'll deal with some Sales Managers that are not just complete morons, but are very destructive to employee morale. Yet, they will hold a lot of sway with the General Manager of a division because they're the one's responsible for bringing in the dollars. In many respects, it appears that the General Managers surround themselves with people that could never hope to grow into their role, so they don’t have the risk of ever losing it until they’ve moved up to a Vice President/executive level.

After a while, arbitrary dates will be set for product releases to ensure revenue targets can be attained for a given quarter, with compromises made to ensure the date is achieved.

All the while, the original culture will slowly become "Trimbleized" and good talent will start to flee in droves (compare the pre and post acquisition turnover rate and you'll be shocked at the trend).

Trimble is terrified of Autodesk, and this would be the main driver behind the SketchUp acquisition. Expect the "FREE" version to garner less attention over the next 24 months as focus shifts to ramping up revenue (either through integration of the SketchUp IP to shore up some deficient products or by driving new releases of the product to grow market share).

While they'll promise the sun, the moon and the stars during the courting process, you'll be lucky if they deliver on a third of it after 12 to 24 months. Good luck, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Oh Gawd! I hope you are wrong!. But will save this and see if you are indeed right, in 2014.

Ugh! and here I was so upbeat and positive.

[kwistenbiebel]

I feel sorry for the SketchUp team (or anyone being acquired by Trimble). I worked for a company that was acquired by these guys and let me tell you things will change in a big way and not for the better. I hope the SketchUp experience is different of course, but our company was in the middle of a pretty heavy acquisition spree by Trimble, and I was visible to a lot during that time.

Trimble is excellent at acquisition’s, that's primarily how they fuel growth. They are however culturally deficient when it comes to integrating the technology and people that come along with an acquisition into the larger operations of a segment, division or the company as a whole, it's just not part of their DNA.

Their standard operating procedure is to close the acquisition to much fanfare, have a rally the troops meeting with the affected staff, and begin to make subtle changes (updated branding, alter legalese, change payment processing, alter credit terms, etc.). Within 9 to 12 months the acquired entity will go through a reduction in force of some kind to improve operating income (all areas are typically impacted).

Management will be driven to increase top line (drive revenue) at all costs, and improve bottom line by maintaining required operating income levels and increasing margin primarily through layering additional work responsibilities on remaining employees and limiting any additional headcount for as long as possible. Additional hires for example have to be approved by the CEO directly and can take months to approve, if they're ever approved.

During this time the entity will have to work within the bureaucratic nightmare that is Trimble corporate. This is where the dysfunctional family comes in. Legal, Finance and HR stay focused on "protecting the business". In fact, to corporate you’re the enemy. Managers will have to deal with insane credit policies, overly protective lawyers that dictate the terms of a sales contract, and HR staff with a focus on "documenting issues" (referred to as the charm squad internally) to ensure the company is safe from disgruntled employee litigation.

General Managers wield a lot of power; they manage their divisions/segments with a strict focus on milking as much money (top and bottom line) as possible within as short a period as possible of the acquisition. Career development, product growth, service to the client, operational efficiency, all becomes low to no priority. In many respects, the General Managers are like absentee landlords, they come around close to the end of the quarter to collect the rent (revenue targets). If the rent looks like it'll be paid in full (targets attained), they will leave you alone, if it looks like you're short on your rent, they'll provide you "help" to make sure you do pay in full. Growth is expected quarter over quarter, and year over year, regardless of seasonality.

Destructive personalities are not dealt with, especially from Sales Managers. Sales carries a VERY BIG STICK, and you'll deal with some Sales Managers that are not just complete morons, but are very destructive to employee morale. Yet, they will hold a lot of sway with the General Manager of a division because they're the one's responsible for bringing in the dollars. In many respects, it appears that the General Managers surround themselves with people that could never hope to grow into their role, so they don’t have the risk of ever losing it until they’ve moved up to a Vice President/executive level.

After a while, arbitrary dates will be set for product releases to ensure revenue targets can be attained for a given quarter, with compromises made to ensure the date is achieved.

All the while, the original culture will slowly become "Trimbleized" and good talent will start to flee in droves (compare the pre and post acquisition turnover rate and you'll be shocked at the trend).

Trimble is terrified of Autodesk, and this would be the main driver behind the SketchUp acquisition. Expect the "FREE" version to garner less attention over the next 24 months as focus shifts to ramping up revenue (either through integration of the SketchUp IP to shore up some deficient products or by driving new releases of the product to grow market share).

While they'll promise the sun, the moon and the stars during the courting process, you'll be lucky if they deliver on a third of it after 12 to 24 months. Good luck, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Oh Gawd! I hope you are wrong!. But will save this and see if you are indeed right, in 2014.

Ugh! and here I was so upbeat and positive.

In my opinion it is all perception.
What to one person feels like a constraining company, might be a beautiful employer to another.
Not to say that I want to disregard Bimmer's comment, but in a bigger company there are always dysfunctional bits to point out, as much as you can point out the good.

Keeping a positive constructive mind set....
The SU team is a good bunch of people, they will be allright

[andybot]

In my opinion it is all perception.
What to one person feels like a constraining company, might be a beautiful employer to another.
Not to say that I want to disregard Bimmer's comment, but in a bigger company there are always dysfunctional bits to point out, as much as you can point out the good.

Keeping a positive constructive mind set....
The SU team is a good bunch of people, they will be allright

depends on where it's coming from. If it's coming from the leadership, then [pressure on sales targets, bottom line, etc.] can be very pervasive throughout a company. Better keep those resumes fresh.

[kwistenbiebel]

In my opinion it is all perception.
What to one person feels like a constraining company, might be a beautiful employer to another.
Not to say that I want to disregard Bimmer's comment, but in a bigger company there are always dysfunctional bits to point out, as much as you can point out the good.

Keeping a positive constructive mind set....
The SU team is a good bunch of people, they will be allright

depends on where it's coming from. If it's coming from the leadership, then [pressure on sales targets, bottom line, etc.] can be very pervasive throughout a company. Better keep those resumes fresh.

And when it would come to that, I hope the SU team start their own company to create Uber Awseome Sketchup II

[Phil Rader, AIA]

CADZooks.... Look it up. the testing ground for SketchUp or PRE-SketchUP if you will.<<<Gobbled up by Autodesk

As part of its strategy to provide products and technologies for vertical markets, design tool maker Autodesk Inc. will acquire CadZooks Inc., a Boulder, Colo., developer of a product for design check and walk-through of AutoCAD models. Anaheim-based Autodesk says adding the new design technology to its repertoire will allow it to cover the full spectrum of visualization tools so designers have a complete solution - using dynamic visualization in the early stages of design development, and then employing photorealistic rendering once the design is finalized. (1996)

WalkThrough was a program that would open dwg files and let you move around
a 3D model as if walking through it just by moving your mouse. It needed a
computer with a lot of horsepower if you were working with a large model,
but still, pretty effective. It had quite a few bells and whistles in it's
final version before it was discontinued. (1996)

A lot of the people that developed it are the same ones who developed
SketchUp.

Let's be happy that Autodesk did not Aquire SU... and hopeful that Trimble has long term goals for SketchUp as it's own product line and not just to strip out of it the code they want and slap it onto an existing product line, leaving the remnants for the garbage chute.

[Alan Fraser]

From Schnitger a few days back.

Mr. Berglund briefly addressed the proposed SketchUp acquisition, saying that SketchUp is an “effective tool for millions of architectural, engineering and construction users. We see SketchUp as a central platform for providing the glue that will couple field operations with other enterprise activities. SketchUp, together with Tekla and a number of other recent acquisitions and internal developments, gives us the tools to provide these more complete solutions. Our initial focus will be on providing solutions for the cadastral, heavy civil and building construction markets.”

This is pretty much the analysis given by Fred Abler in the FormFonts blog a few days earlier.

Given Trimble’s brilliant.. positioning, it’s highly likely they intend to use SketchUp as the web-friendly super-glue that will hold all of their strategic acquisitions together. This would appear to be the perfect challenge for SketchUp.

The penultimate bullet in the Schnitger article also gives some idea what Trimble paid for SU.

[Mike Lucey]

Just read through the - Transfer of licenses and personal data to Trimble - here, http://sketchup.google.com/usernotice.html

This paragraph has me a little confused!

Following up on several of the posts about last week's user notice, I wanted to let everyone know that the Trimble's Terms of Service for the 3D Warehouse will be available to read before the "closing date." This will give everyone who is interested a chance to review the new Terms. With any luck, they'll provide more fodder for discussion

Thanks Mark for further clarifying the 'Closing Date' issue in relation to members with 3DWH content. I nearly missed your post amongst Bimmer's post and the following commentary posts.

However I am still a little confused. I realise that its probably not possible to pin down a closing date. Certain times have been mentioned but nothing concrete. Would it not make more sense to have a 1 week post closing date dead line? This would in my opinion be more normal practice with these sort of things?

[pc0158]

And when it would come to that, I hope the SU team start their own company to create Uber Awseome Sketchup II

I don't see how. The purchase will lock up all proprietary code under Trimble's control; a re-do as part of another venture would be instantly crushed by lawsuits and the non-competition clauses all employees will be required to sign as part of the acquisition, or which they have already signed as part of their employment at Google.

I would have much preferred to see the project released into the open source realm. I fully expect development, especially of the free version, to grind to a halt quickly; the only benefit to Trimble is the elimination of competition.

[jason_maranto]

@ BIMMER

That all sounds like typical corporate to me -- even "good" corporate seems to be run in similar ways. I generally attribute this to the stock market. Stock owners do not care about employee morale or any such thing... they care only for profit (so the stock attains more value).

If your owners (stock holders) only care for profit, then small wonder the managers of said entities are profit-centric in their focus.

Ladder climbing middle-management style is also well known and generally thoroughly rewarded, so again I see no surprises here.

Best,
Jason.

[jgb]

SU to .stl

That works great except that SU still won't do a real curve no matter what format the file ends up in. Not sure how this will effect the end result as I have not tried a 3D printer yet. Thanks for the link though, seems to be a slick little plug-in

Up the segment count on arcs, curves and circles, say around 120 or more. Way higher if high resolution is needed.

[jbacus]

I feel sorry for the SketchUp team (or anyone being acquired by Trimble). I worked for a company that was acquired by these guys and let me tell you things will change in a big way and not for the better.

Your comments don't match my observations. Of which acquired company were you a part?

john
.

[andybot]

Your comments don't match my observations

Isn't this a great place for unsolicited advice

Here's my 2cents: it's been known to happen that a company is lovey-dovey and says all the right things until the sale goes through, then the real culture of the place comes to the fore. I don't know Trimble from bumble, just saying, that pattern is not new in the corporate world.

[Glenn at home]

Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

SU to .stl

That works great except that SU still won't do a real curve no matter what format the file ends up in. Not sure how this will effect the end result as I have not tried a 3D printer yet. Thanks for the link though, seems to be a slick little plug-in

Up the segment count on arcs, curves and circles, say around 120 or more. Way higher if high resolution is needed.

[Alan Fraser]

Fight! Fight! hey, keep me out of this.
Actually, I'm not sure that real curves are all that relevant in 3D printing. Here's a link to a 3D model I posted earlier of a soldier. This is a FF model, subjected to SDS and then exported to STL. (we have our own stl exporter which is an adaptation of the one I linked to earlier)
I dunno how it's managed it, but the photo has made the helmet look like its a little facetted. It isn't; I've got it in front of me and it's perfectly smooth and round...I'm fondling it as I write.
I do know that I modelled a very small (10mm long tapered cylinder with vents and flanges) part for a model aero engine and it came out perfectly usable.

Back on topic and regarding Bimmer's post:
At the moment (and until he comes back and gives more detail), I'm disregarding it. It has no provenance and no supporting evidence. Bimmer may be genuine in his warning; they may be heartfelt and maybe a cause for concern.
On the other hand, they could be writings of someone who isn't comfortable in the corporate culture, a disgruntled ex-employee, or even a complete troll, by way of a bit of light industrial sabotage...we have absolutely no way of knowing. He signed up, made this single post and hasn't been heard from since...not even to check any reaction.

[Jeff Hammond]

Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.

[solo]

Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.

Is 100% curve even possible?

[d12dozr]

...Still not a real curve...

3D printers all have a print resolution. You just need to make sure your line segments in SU are smaller than that resolution. For example, Shapeways White, Strong & Flexible material has a print resolution of 0.2 mm, so you just make sure all your line segments are smaller than .02 mm and you're good.

Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.

[andybot]

Back on topic and regarding Bimmer's post:
At the moment (and until he comes back and gives more detail), I'm disregarding it. It has no provenance and no supporting evidence. Bimmer may be genuine in his warning; they may be heartfelt and maybe a cause for concern.
On the other hand, they could be writings of someone who isn't comfortable in the corporate culture, a disgruntled ex-employee, or even a complete troll, by way of a bit of light industrial sabotage...we have absolutely no way of knowing. He signed up, made this single post and hasn't been heard from since...not even to check any reaction.

Certainly taking it with a grain of salt, but tell me something like that has never happened in the corporate world. It's just good to be ware, and hell, I love a good doomsday warning

[Jeff Hammond]

Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.

Is 100% curve even possible?

yeah.. it is..
(though on screen it's not totally possible because pixels are square.. when output to a robot saw though, the cuts can be absolutely true)

[edit] a sort of similar problem comes up in nurbs apps.. the surfaces shown on screen are actually render meshes.. basically, they look like sketchup surfaces.. but the underlying calculations are there so when output, the true surfaces will be cut/printed)… likewise, when inferencing and what not, sometimes things will appear not to line up in the nurbs app because of the render mesh being used to represent the surface whereas intersecting with the surface is actually determined by the true surface… basically, with nurbs apps, learn to trust the wires and ignore the surfaces

[Dan Rathbun]

Back on topic and regarding Bimmer's post:
... He signed up, made this single post and hasn't been heard from since...not even to check any reaction.

Right.. for all we know, it could be a employee of any other competing software, just trying to scare users into looking at alternatives for their workflow.

And what are the team members supposed to do anyway? If they stay with Google, they may have to move to another division / team, etc. where the personnel dynamics and culture are also likely to change.

If they go to a new company.. there will be change as well.

So what do they have to lose ?? Might as well try things out with Trimble. A year or so down the road, if they don't care for how things are, they could always look elsewhere, perhaps even back with Google.

[Ecuadorian]

The purchase will lock up all proprietary code under Trimble's control; a re-do as part of another venture would be instantly crushed by lawsuits and the non-competition clauses all employees will be required to sign as part of the acquisition, or which they have already signed as part of their employment at Google.

Still, Michael Gibson, who created Rhino as an employee for McNeel, has created a new modeler called MoI, completely rethinking the UI and way of working.

SketchUp has, by design, a number of limitations. It would be really cool if the same team could start a completely new software, completely re-thinking the current paradigms of 3D modelers and coming up with something that is still simple, but way more powerful. Don't get too attached to a way of working that is already 12 years old.

[Glenn at home]

Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.

Yes, I mentioned that already.

[Grimjier]

Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.

you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.

Is 100% curve even possible?

yeah.. it is..
(though on screen it's not totally possible because pixels are square.. when output to a robot saw though, the cuts can be absolutely true)

[edit] a sort of similar problem comes up in nurbs apps.. the surfaces shown on screen are actually render meshes.. basically, they look like sketchup surfaces.. but the underlying calculations are there so when output, the true surfaces will be cut/printed)… likewise, when inferencing and what not, sometimes things will appear not to line up in the nurbs app because of the render mesh being used to represent the surface whereas intersecting with the surface is actually determined by the true surface… basically, with nurbs apps, learn to trust the wires and ignore the surfaces

Knowing the 3d printer capabilities you can tweak the final output. All of my models for my side business Hobby Fuzion http://www.shapeways.com/shops/hobbyfuzion are made in Sketchup. Designed for the tabletop, the models are perfectly round to the touch and I use about a 64 segment circle for these to conserve polygon count (some are old and the early Shapeways had tighter poly limits that they have increased over the years). The original .STL plugin was from a request I made on the old @Last forums years ago Course while the sample models are not very detailed on my shop (that was mainly due to resoluztion limits, not lack of Sketchup capacity), the test planet/moon model was a hollowed half-sphere base in Sketchup and surface detailed in Zbrush from a picture of the Moon made into an alpha brush. I've also made some jewlery for familiy (not shown) usine Shapeways silver printing that had curves without facets so it's doable.

[Glenn at home]

...Still not a real curve...

3D printers all have a print resolution. You just need to make sure your line segments in SU are smaller than that resolution. For example, Shapeways White, Strong & Flexible material has a print resolution of 0.2 mm, so you just make sure all your line segments are smaller than .02 mm and you're good.

Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.

This I was not sure about, I did mention that I had not tried 3D printing myself. Good information for sure, thanks

[findthong]

Still, Michael Gibson, who created Rhino as an employee for McNeel, has created a new modeler called MoI, completely rethinking the UI and way of working.

If something go wrong...
I ever think something like SketchUp ability + Moi curvy nurbs is ideal. Join force?
I bet they would gain a good amount from something like Kickstarter.com

[Jeff Hammond]

Still, Michael Gibson, who created Rhino as an employee for McNeel, has created a new modeler called MoI, completely rethinking the UI and way of working.

If something go wrong...
I ever think something like SketchUp ability + Moi curvy nurbs is ideal. Join force?
I bet they would gain a good amount from something like Kickstarter.com

basically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.