clip mapping and bump mapping and...

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clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:37 am

I know what clip mapping is, so i need a tutorial on how to do it if at all possible, but whats the difference between normal and bump mapping?

Also, how does hight mapping work?? And is there any way to generate hight maps? Ive seen them in action and god do they make things look nice.

ALSO! Im in need of a good fence library (or single material for chain link) for kerkythea if possible.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby robmoors » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:38 am

And I would like fries with that and 2 hamburgers and a melon banana shake with crushed ice from the southpole!

But as to the normal and bump mapping the diffrence is that bump mapping perturbs the existing normal (the way the surface is facing) of a model, normal mapping replaces the normal entirely. Like bump mapping, it is used to add details to shading without using more polygons. But where a bump map is usually calculated based on a single-channel (interpreted as grayscale) image, the source for the normals in normal mapping is usually a multichannel image (that is, channels for "red", "green" and "blue" as opposed to just a single color) derived from a set of more detailed versions of the objects. The values of each channel (color) usually represent the xyz coordinates of the normal in the point corresponding to that texel.

Now what height mapping does is it actually creates that geometry based on a height map, so it actually creates the poly's. Not much difference between a bump and a height map though, they are basically the same. However it's not called a height map but a displacement map. And these can be get quite easy to get from an existing texture with a program called CrazyBump. A quick google will help you out. It also would have helped you out with your other questions, but hey we are here to help no?

As to the clip mapping. Isnt that just texturing??? Though with a special degrading pattern map used to compensate for large virtual spaces? Just apply a texture????

As for the fence, open a high res shot of a shackle in photoshop, erase the parts you don't want and make it tileable, and save it as a png. Cmon youre not that lazy are you??? :P

Hope this helped.
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Rob Moors
Architecture Student

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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:38 am

Im not that lazy at all, but your explanation of the difference between normal and bump mapping confused the crap out of me and im certified as a genius according to the Racine School district.

Clip mapping is used in kerky to produce clear areas in a texture, the same way the fence textures work in SU. I cant save an image as a PNG (i know how to make images with clear backgrounds) because kerkythea renders the "clear" part as white. Which is what the clip maps are for.
A clip map is a map that tells the program what areas will be rendered and what areas will not.


I think what i got out of it is that im using my normal maps wrong, because i do in fact use crazy bump (been using it since version 3 point something), but the normal maps that i seem to be getting out of it are all in greyscale...so that means they arent normals? perhaps a tutorial showing the differences, how they work, and some examples would be helpful.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Fletch » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:39 am

you can d/l the normal map plugin for Gimp or Pshop here:
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/nv_t ... tools.html

this will sound condescending in this post, but please understand it's not meant to sound this way at all -
if you are a genius, why don't you look up "Normal Map" in Wikipedia or google, and read up on it yourself? takes like 60 seconds, and this is what I did to learn about it. same way I learned what in the world an "ambient occlusion" render was. we all gotta learn someplace.

and a clip map is a mask. like a halloween mask... the holes in the mask let you see the eyes of the person behind it. Anything black is the mask and hides your picture. anything white lets you see thru the mask and reveals your picture. So, if you d/l the alpha mask tutorial I made at KT.net, you will understand better about masking (alpha map, clip map, alpha mask, clip mask, all the same thing.)

Also, there are some chain link fence materials to be had on the web. But isn't there one automatically w/ google SU free? could've sworn there was...

so open the png in Pshop or Gimp, and select the pixels w/out transparency (in Pshop this means to CTRL-click the thumbnail icon of the layer, it will select on the pixels on the layer for you. then create a new layer, fill the selection with white. now in pshop go to Selection>invert, and now fill that area with black. Flatten and save the .jpg as a new file called 'mask' or 'alpha' or 'clip' whatever you wanna call it. Insert that in the clip map slot of your KT mat, and away ya go!... incidentally sometimes you won't have to do this, you can just insert the image used in the diffuse slot into the clip map slot, and play with the slider that chooses which pixels to clip. Anything to the left of the slider in the image's value histogram (which you cant see, but can imagine) will be considered as black in the clip map, anything to the right of the slider will be considered white in the clip map.

also, if you use gray in a clip map, it will show semi-transparently in proportion to the % of gray you use... so 50% gray will be 50% transparent, 2% grey will be 2% transparent.

KT does support normal mapping or bump mapping, and there are tutorials out there for creating good bump and normal maps... but you will need to study about this, sometimes you can get away with just using the image used in the diffuse slot, but many times this will not do if you want a true bump map.

KT does not support micro or macro displacement... yet.
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby jenujacob » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:40 am

u can find some chain link material for kerky here
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby modelhead » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:41 am

A clip map tutorial for you....
http://www.suplugins.com/index.php?p=pa ... um_15_beta
Cheers!
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modelhead 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:41 am

Fletch wrote:you can d/l the normal map plugin for Gimp or Pshop here:
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/nv_t ... tools.html

this will sound condescending in this post, but please understand it's not meant to sound this way at all -
if you are a genius, why don't you look up "Normal Map" in Wikipedia or google, and read up on it yourself? takes like 60 seconds, and this is what I did to learn about it. same way I learned what in the world an "ambient occlusion" render was. we all gotta learn someplace.



Because i was on my way to work at the time and figured i would have an answer by morning, and sure enough here it is. And havent you ever heard that us genius kids have ZERO common sense? :D

And i already knew what a clip mask does, but thanks. And thanks for everything else.
Now to recover from 13 hours of work....
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby robmoors » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:42 am

You do know that my post on the normal-bump mapping mwas a direct qoute out of wiki??? I dont know where you get the idea of you beeing a genius if you can't understand a wiki paragraph on mapping.
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Rob Moors
Architecture Student

robmoors 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:43 am

...Dude, i never even looked at any of them yet, I read the thread, said thanks for the info (i explained why i hadnt looked before) and went to shopko to pick up my copy of halo 3.

Do we honestly need to flame me in here for making a simple comment? If you dont like what i said, keep it to yourself, because honestly ive heard it before.
The reason i said it confused me was because i was pretty damn tired as ive already got 15 hours of overtime at work this week and i have 3 days left, so it didnt quite register. And of course after reading it again, as i only skimmed it before, it makes perfect sense.

Depending on the color, it alters the position of the final pixel or whatever in the render in a 3D space.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby robmoors » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:01 am

See you understand now. And I was not flaming in here, it's just when you mention you are a self proclaimed genius or whatever twice in one topic when you didn't even bother with a simple google search you can expect comments.

Next time try to rest before posting. Hmm k? ;)
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Rob Moors
Architecture Student

robmoors 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:02 am

robmoors wrote:Next time try to rest before posting. Hmm k? :ewink:

Rofl, I wish. Sleep just isnt in my schedule it seems.
When only 4 people work third shift (should be as many as 12) and the day shift doesnt do anything but make a mess of things, well, yeah... I wind up working alot.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Bill Wilson » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:02 am

Well Masta Sqidge if you wish to grow up and become Mister Sqidge I would suggest that you find other employment. Geniuses, or is that Genii? would surely be in a position to find a job that is more suited to their intelect, I would think.Now that is not flaming son, you are surrounded by gentlemen and women here and I have never seen an instance of flaming on this forum yet, maybe you are mistaking constructive critisism for flaming? If that is the case I would suggest that you hang up the genius tag that you have given yourself and leave it hanging up until, and if, you ever deserve it. That,Masta Sqidge, is advice from a 63 year old with an IQ of 130 and who figured out that the best way to learn anything was to keep the eyes, mind and ears open whilst keeping the lips buttoned.
Cheers and Beers,
Bill.
ps. We are now 2 hours into daylight saving here.
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Bill Wilson 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby robmoors » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:03 am

Well Im my case I was attacking the statements he made in this topic, not meant as flaming but it came close to it because of pure frustration; I get about 5 people adding me to msn a day asking me shit about 3D and 2D out of the blue without proper introduction. And most of them are questions like how do you did that often making reference to a piece of work which took ages.
And if not that it are questions which can be answered with a simple google. So im guessing that my frustration blew out on Masta. Sorry for that not very fitting for me as a moderator here.

But Bill has a got a point. It sounds like you are mass producing for your work. Not very fitting for a genius. Myself I have a similar job which requires very little of my true potential. However it pays decent and I can combine it with my studies at the university, so thats a big plus. However if you are working mass production as a full time job, it might be time to search new employment. However keep in mind don't throw away your old shoes before you got new ones.

Rob
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:04 am

I also feel that I'm wasting myself and my "genius" to some "mass production" at where I work now (and to some work some way and far undereducated person could do without any problem). Certainly it frustrates me and I would really like to do something else.

Actually I'm slowly "building" that new shoe but surely won't throw out the old ones before I have a fase and sound step into the new ones.

I'm (age, emotion, enthusiasm, (im)patience and circumspection wise) somewhere between you, Masta and Bill.

and I also wonder what these different masks exactly are.
Well, let's all put this flaming and try to learn fom each other patiently and friendly - after all that's what we are here for...
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby robmoors » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:04 am

It indeed is a shame that true potential is wasted and people don't realise that that potential should be used, eventhough experience (time wise) might not be present. This especially applies to people who just got their uni degree and are seeking employment. However luckily they do have talent scouts walking around. However they have a limit to the number of people they can select. Not everyone who puts their hart into what they do and are actually good at it get recognised.

Myself I am currently following a honour track in my architecture studies, I got an A in a design project in my first year which is unheard of. The first A they gave out in 5 years on that project and eventually you still end up sitting behind autocad 90% of the time. A shame really. At my uni they lean too much on the end result instead of the actual process of designing. Yeah they increase the attention to that over the years however the end result weighs way heavier than the design process. Which I find to be a waste of my time to be honest seeing acad work becomes repetition after you have got the program down. The idea is already there in sketches and more detailed drawing. Its the concept that matters

I am known for my great marketing, presentation skills and my ability to learn everything within a day if needed. Heck I got 3ds max down fully in a week, everything from the moderate modelling to texturing to a decent level. And eventhough my boss knows about these skills of mine, and that I have brought him concepts he chooses to use these concepts however he does not choose to involve me further into the development. Which is in fact the actual design process. In my opinion I am limited in what I do where I work now. Quite the frustration from time to time, the inability to grow in your current position because other people are limiting for what reason what so ever.

Thats why I favor group work, people working together with everybody working on their own respective planes of specialty, and coming together as a whole instead of a chain of command. Yes a chain of command has to be present in order to streamline operations however it does not have to be present in the operations themself.

Anyway so far my rant :P
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Rob Moors
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:05 am

It seems that we are a whole bunch of whining, frustrated people here...
:D
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby robmoors » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:05 am

Comes with the job I guess :P
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robmoors 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:06 am

Well, I'm not in mass production, more that im the end of the line before the consumers, aka 3rd shift stocking :evil: But, if I've learned anything its to just do what you have to do no matter how much of a pain in the behind it is. And no matter how crappy it is the end of the week and the paycheck is so much better when you've earned it.

And to be honest that was the first time in years that I've mentioned the genius thing out loud, so I'll have to apologize for what probably looks like an "im better than you" statement... which it wasn't. I realize that as far as these programs (and no doubt just about everything else) I'm at or near the bottom of the totem pole compared to you guys.

I also realize that I'm wasting my potential because almost everything I do I find (relatively) easy to do, but I also know that nothing beats experience. Personally I know I'm capable of alot more than I'm doing but having spent the better part of my soon to be ending teenage years being a lazy slacker I'm paying for it now. The thing is that I want to find something I'm good at to go to school for, and right now I'm attempting to get a hang of Blender's interface, but it seems that I never have enough time to sit down and use it.

The other problem is that I'm good at and enjoy anything having to do with a trade, electrical, woodworking, metalworking, plumbing, and even heating and a/c are all things that I've done in the past without there ever being a confused moment while doing it.
This sort of stuff though is starting to feel more like a hobby to me than anything, so while I'm here and listening maybe I could get an opinion from some people who have been there? I don't exactly have anyone around for advice here, so fire away. Maybe you guys could help someone to recover from being a huge waste for the 5 years normally reserved for getting on your feet.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby titmas » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:06 am

Masta Squidge wrote:Maybe you guys could help someone to recover from being a huge waste for the 5 years normally reserved for getting on your feet.


Dude, your 19. Everything in your life up till now and for the next year or two means squat in the long run. Yeah its true that you may have gained lots of knowledge through schooling(and that will always stay with you) but what you lack is the wisdom to use that knowledge to live your life. Nobody at 19 does, and that's the beauty of being 19 so enjoy it because soon enough life will start to come at you full speed and without letup and you will long for the days of a nice steady 3rd shift job and the time to play video games. Wisdom only comes from years of experience(aka mistakes) so don't rush it but rather just go out and DO something, if you don't like what your doing than figure out why and find something else and keep doing that until you 'find it' and by doing that you build wisdom. You GAIN knowledge which requires very little effort (go read a book)but you BUILD wisdom which requires hard work and time and its that wisdom(when used properly) that will garner you a happy life. And if you end up doing work that you enjoy count yourself lucky because in today's world that's rare. And as a side note, just be careful about thinking that everything is easy for you to learn because when you approach things like that your most likely missing something, usually something very important.

Much love and respect.
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:07 am

Yeah I know that nothing has really started in my life yet but I should have been doing well in school and I should be in college now.

Maybe I am over reacting but my excessive amount of screwing off in high school really screwed me over for a while longer than it should have. At least I have the benefit of having money to pay for school, so I know I'm not really in any kind of hole here, but the problem is figuring out what I want to do :lol:


Remember that all of these posts are at a time when I'm really tired, and somewhat, well, more open to talking about things. (Stupid work) Maybe I should just shut it? :D
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:08 am

Masta, I was something like the same kind in high school and could not go to university right after finishing so I had to work, too (I mean I did not need it for a living but my parents as well as myself "demanded" that one either studies or wors).

Anyway, I finally succeeded to do all my studies in majors that I really liked and ever since have finished like three universities (for I'm still not able to make up my mind although I'm more than twice as old as you are).

For an intellectually active person it is quite "normal" to keep seeking all through his/her life and never feel like having finished everything. Like I started with history, archaeology, languages, law (all kind of "humanities") and I'm here right now (not as an "admin" - because that's just an "administrative" duty - but sketchupping).

So don't feel you are wasted - what's more, enjoy the constant and urging discontent with yourself.
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:09 am

Gaieus wrote:...So don't feel you are wasted - what's more, enjoy the constant and urging discontent with yourself.


Thanks. And I never did get to that clip mapping... Maybe I'll start working on creating a kerky library for all the transparent materials in SU.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Bill Wilson » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:09 am

Well Masta, it has all been said! Here we are in different countries, different occupations and different ages but it seems that in some respects we are all very similar. The old saying, If I knew then what I know now I'd be everything I ever wished to be!hold true. When I was at school I was so bright that I could do all my assignments in less than half the time the rest of the kids took. Then I got bored, (oh how I dispise that word), and would slack off and get into the most frightful mischieve. My father pulled me out of school at 15, that was the youngest you could leave school here in those days and put me in a job that had absolutely no challenge whatsoever in it. After three months I'd had enough so I tossed the job in, left home and ventured forth to find my fortune. Over the next 40 years I found, and lost several fortunes. I went from rags to riches and back several times but I never had to use my brains too much as long as I was fit and healthy, so now I'm a 'Jack of all trades and a master of none' Commercial fishing was the only occupation I had that had any challenge, every day was different and situations could change in an instant, quite often for the worse, and the right decission had to be made instantly because lives and gear were at stake if the wrong decission was made. Every day was a challenge and I think that is why I enjoyed it so much. But all good things come to an end and my end came when I broke my back and my neck in a stupid motorbike accident, it wasn't an accident, it was absolute stupidity on my part. So here I am, back to the rags stage, but one hell of a lot wiser for it. Since then I have had plenty off time to think and mull over my past and if I could have it all over again I would, only I would make different decissions. I have had the good fortune to mix with people older and wiser than myself all my life and if only I'd had the commonsense to heed their advice things may have been different. Ah well I'm older and wiser now myself and it certainly is not too late to make another start. I am thoroughly enjoying SketchUp and this forum and I have gleened a lot of very usefull information and skills to the stage that I'm going to approach any and everyone that I can find who might be able to use the skills that I have learnt here. Then, once again, I shall climb out of the rags and maybe not to riches again but at least into a comfort level where I can afford to eat more often than once a day. Well, well I have rabbited on, haven't I? We were all young once and we all had an impatience that diminishes with age as we come to realise that whoever made time made plenty of it, no one knows how much, not even Google.com. A word of advice though, get as much sleep as you need and you need plenty when you're young, and while your not sleeping enjoy life. When things are getting you down and everything is going cockeyed say to yourself "One day I'll look back on this and laugh." I look back and laugh often, it keeps me in a cheerful frame of mind.
Cheers and Beers,
Bill.
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Bill Wilson 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby modelhead » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:10 am

Gai.... what you have said here is the key for Masta. It is something to be thankful for...without it there would be little achievement.
enjoy the constant and urging discontent with yourself.


...and this is where the wisdom can be gained.

last...my thoughts differ only with respect to waiting to discover....do not wait...when you end up in the wrong job, walk away....don't waste time, there is so little of it. You will find another job/career. Go ahead and burn the brige...relying on it will only blurr your vision and slow your progress.
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:10 am

Anyways clip maps are crazy easy to make, just bring the image into PS, play with it until you have black and white only, and you got a clip map.

I imagine its more complex than that, but that worked fine for a fence texture (i used the texture from SU) and with a not so quick, (damn PC) render I got this:



Im about to start a close up render to see how well the normal maps from crazy bump worked on the fence. But it seriously took like 2 hours to render that with no lights or anything in it. My PC sucks.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:13 am

wtf happened here??



I got everything set up, but on my fencing above the concessions the texture slowly scales up and gets really huge as it goes from right to left... Thats really odd.
Not to mention other problems im having with the scene, such as light not coming through the transparent glass material i put in the covers of the recessed lights in the little archway near the stairs... But thats probably my fault, and ill fix that later.
So the question is, what in gods name happened to that texture? Its the same texture on every section of fence!
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:13 am

hmm, i think its a moire related problem, because im doing another render (wont be done for at least half an hour, stupid PC) and now its doing it on another section.
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Masta Squidge 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby modelhead » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:14 am

I can't help you with the funny material but I am interested in the model you are building.....are you a skater?? The one thing that I haven't seen here or anywhere for that matter is a good model of a skate park....I anxious to see it as it comes along.
Cheers!!
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modelhead 
 

Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby solo » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:14 am

Bill

Thank you for your story, I take inspiration from your wisdom. I find myself reminding myself to stop, look, and take the moment to re-evaluate what and where I am and where I am heading.
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Re: clip mapping and bump mapping and...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:15 am

modelhead wrote:I can't help you with the funny material but I am interested in the model you are building.....are you a skater?? The one thing that I haven't seen here or anywhere for that matter is a good model of a skate park....I anxious to see it as it comes along.
Cheers!!

yes I am in fact a skater lol.

Spent the better part of the last 10 years with my feet planted firmly on the grit of my skateboard.

Sadly though in the last year or so i havent been able to do it much because I couldnt afford to buy new boards as I found myself with more and more things i needed to buy instead of things i wanted. So ive been just borrowing my girlfriends skateboard (which i really like, even if it is pink and black) and going for hour or two long rides.
Tricks are out of the question because im unwilling to risk breaking her board, but it feels good to ride.

Here it is with a bit (very small bit) of setup in kerky so i could post it on another forum i visit, im asking them to help me with a name for it, but they are all just lame kids with even worse ideas it seems:

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