Bonzai3D - double take

[xrok1]

thanks guys, thats exactly the way i feel.

well its seems i might be a bit hasty on the moving things statement its just a little finicky ;the shift locking; and takes some practice. its seems that the shift key serves two functions. tap it to turn snap to original on/off, and hold it to lock inference. the thing is it seems that the inference locking is a little over sensitive making you be very precise before you press shift or no go.
that being said it does work once you get used to it. (i would still prefer a gizmo though)

[bonzai3d support]

Rocky,

You make an interesting point about moving certain tools to their palettes -- and the ability simply drag a component into a project. We will have to think about these ideas.

Regarding reference plane changing, if you do not want this, just click the Lock Plane icon at the bottom of the screen to prevent this.

Adam,

We are not trying to "defend" our software as much as we want to try to help Rocky (or anyone else) understand why things work the way they do in bonzai3d. If anyone has questions and they email us, they will get a very quick response that will allow them (hopefully) to understand and get back on track doing what they need to do.

Your point about SU users learning from another's mistakes when trying to learn bonzai3d is 100% correct -- and we encourage Rocky (or anyone else) to post their "errors" -- but hopefully they can do this AND post the "answers" at the same time (because they will have already received them from us). This way they can say "that constantly changing reference plane was driving me crazy -- until I realized that I could turn it off with the lock plane icon at the bottom of the screen" -- instead of "I am getting really frustrated by this plane changing stuff..."

Mike,

Yes, we will be launching our first Webinar for bonzai3d next week. Feel free to visit our site to sign up for this if you are interested.

-----------

Rocky,

Thanks again for the thoughts that you are sharing. We hope that it helps other SU users as much as it helps us!

[xrok1]

alright, here we go again, back at it.
i must say this morning i'm really starting to enjoy this!

layed out my kicks for reference (copy tool is very nice for adding in cross pieces). grouped them and then copied to another file to build in (less clutter that way). when i'm done i'll copy everything back into place. the fact that when you create it makes a part that is seperate to move and such is really starting to turn me on! not quite brave enough to tackle components yet but soon.

[bonzai3d support]

Rocky,

Copying and pasting objects to a new project works well (and has its own advantages) but in case you have not yet found it, you can also select objects within your file, right click and select Isolate Objects from the Menu. Then all the other objects will temporarily disappear, and when you are done, right click once more and select Reveal objects to bring them all back.

[xrok1]

Rocky,

Copying and pasting objects to a new project works well (and has its own advantages) but in case you have not yet found it, you can also select objects within your file, right click and select Isolate Objects from the Menu. Then all the other objects will temporarily disappear, and when you are done, right click once more and select Reveal objects to bring them all back.

yes i found that feature too but for personal choice i decided to do it this way since i'm going to try and layout some pieces for references when i build it i figured it might be nice to have a different file. also its nice to see how b3d handles 2 files opened at once.
since you're around i was noticing that when i edit a group i can't reference any other objects because they all disappear. i can display them if i change to wireframe display but still can't reference them this makes it dificult to say the least. surely you have a solution to this. please share, i can't seem to resolve this.

[bonzai3d support]

Rocky,

Does unchecking Hide Ghosted from the Display Options do what you want?

[xrok1]

just got a crash while (asked me to save before it closed ) playing with scenes (which are very good btw) but i never setup windows email cause i hate it and always just use hotmail. it may be an idea to have the option for b3d to write an error text file to the desktop so that users like me can still send error report as attachments to you.

b3d1.jpg

edit:
PS, even though it asked me to save none of the dimensioning or the 2 scenes i had just added where in the saved file.

[xrok1]

Rocky,

Does unchecking Hide Ghosted from the Display Options do what you want?

somewhat, i can see the other objects now but i still can't reference them as far as moving to align...

[bonzai3d support]

Rocky,

If you do have a crash and save the file, open this file from your Documents folder: BNZ@date_time folder. (A crash save will not affect your original file.)

If you repeat the steps and you repeat the crash, please let us know what you are doing so we can investigate this. You can also look in your Documents folder for a file called bz_dump... that will contain the crashlog information, and if you find this, you can email this to us (support@bonzai3d.com) and we can take a look at what this might indicate.

Currently Snapping to Ghosted objects is disabled -- but we are looking into adding an option that can allow this for an upcoming version. (It sounds like you need this option in this case!)

[xrok1]

thanks for the tip on the saved file, that one had all the information, scenes...
how do you suggest i reference objects outside a group??

[bonzai3d support]

Rocky,

I almost always work with the Grid Snap enabled (and set to a small value that will not get in my way -- perhaps 1" or for cabinetry, perhaps 1/4 - 1/16"). This makes it easy to keep everything aligned.

As far as referencing other objects while editing groups, if you make a Guide (either "temporary" using the Space Bar, or "permanent" using the Guide tool) you can then snap to these while you are editing a group.

(Again, allowing snapping to ghosted objects would make this easier, and we hope to have this feature enabled soon.)

Does this help?

[xrok1]

Does this help?

frankly, NO. referencing geometry is what seperates us from the animals. seriously i never use grid snap in any programs and never will, it just seems somehow cheesy to me, should i count the squares to make sure i'm on the right one? i have to say i never saw that coming.

how soon do you expect to have that bug worked out? maybe i can continue this then. i know i must sound like a real dick, i'm sorry but you are asking people to pay for this software right? so please don't take this the wrong way, i like B3D,but i've been asked to look at your software to evaluate it for the users here and thats what i'm doing. you are after all competing with a on the most part free software (SU), so i'm going to give you a few suggestions on how to tweak your software. if i'm out of line ignore me.

these are a few things i've noticed that could be improved:
-open recent should be in order of most recent
-you should be able to rearrange sub palettes in the modeling tools palette (eg. i would put transform 3rd. because its used a lot)
-component tools and group tools should be in the same palette
-measure tools and dimension tools should be in the same palette
-guide and point tools should be in the draw palette
-guide tool should have an offset function
-better yet give all the draw tools and offset tools a checkbox in the tool options to draw as guide
-whatever direction a transform starts in should be positive when you type in the value, you shouldn't need to type -5" if you were already moving in that direction
-whatever direction a transform starts in should be locked when you hold shift (this seems to work inconsistently when snap to original is on)
-you should be able to right click on an object and hide it (that easy)
-the object palette should auto scroll to what ever you select in the view port
-when you resize something you've created from the objects perameters input height, width... it should be anchored by the first point clicked when you created it. not the center point. or at least this should be an option.
-right click edit group should not edit components it should edit only groups (confusing) add an entry for edit component that way one will know if your dealing with a group or component
-its not a cad package if you can't reference geometry (its part of the design process)unless you alredy know what your exact dims are, in which case all you need is a drafting package.
-if you hope to compete with SU or any similiar priced package out there, add descent drafting tools. that should get you about 75% of the market right there.

i've had this message typed for about an hour now trying to decide whether to submit it or not.
well, here it is. i just hope you take it as constructive criticism and don't get offended. if the obove mentioned things were straightened out i think you would have an outstanding piece of software and i as well as other SU users i'm sure (back me up fella's) would be standing in line. we're all anxiously waiting for a SU slayer trust me!

for now i'll ungroup everything and see if i can continue that way without creating too much of a mess.

[thomthom]

Currently Snapping to Ghosted objects is disabled -- but we are looking into adding an option that can allow this for an upcoming version. (It sounds like you need this option in this case!)

That would be nice.

[xrok1]

i'll try again with a different approach. i'll rely more on layers and less on groups and see how that works.

[arail1]

A quick question - what file formats can Bonzai3D export as?
I'm curious as to how (or if) I could bring a Bonzai file into modo and, in the other direction, could I bring it into SketchUp to use with VRay?
I had a trial for Bonzai but I got a big project and then never managed to open the program more than once or twice. Now the trial is expired.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

[xrok1]

yes and yes, Lightwave would probably be the best way to go to Modo and for SU it will open 3DStudio, DWG, or OBJ if you download the obj importer script.

[xrok1]

here are the import types if your interested in that.

[Pilou]

Not "3dm" import export
Curious for a Nurbs program

[xrok1]

well don't quote me but i think calling b3d a nurbs modeler is a little optimistic. there are nurbs surfaces but the rest...

by the way b3d support does it say "nurbz" for a reason or is it a typo?

[arail1]

Thanks xrok1.
I'm looking for a program that's kind of mid way between SketchUp and modo - modo being a little weak on things like inferencing and any kind of drafting capabilities and SketchUp being a little weak on the organic modeling front.
And I'd like to have a nurbs program.
So Bonzai3D seems like it might fit the bill.

I wish my trial hadn't expired.
I don't know if SketchUp still does this (I bought my first license years ago) but they used to do their trials as 8 hrs - no matter when or how long it took you to use up the 8 hrs. I liked that much better than these 30 day gigs.

[arail1]

I must have written my post while you were posting yours.
It's not really a nurbs program? In what sense?
I think they advertise it as nurbs software.

[xrok1]

It's not really a nurbs program? In what sense?

like pilou says no .3dm file support. also not even iges, i think its a solid modeler with 'nurbz' surface support. although i may just be proving my ignorance here but i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.
i know this is a b3d thread but hey its my thread so you might want to check out moi3d as well. i know for a fact thats a nurbs modeller. and a good one. but i'm enjoying my b3d experience too there are just a few minor issues that need to be worked out with it.

[xrok1]

here's another reason i'm not so sure about 'nurbs' modeling.
look at the controls, no cages or points on the solids?

b3d1.jpg

true nurbs sphere via Moi3D. notice the cage and resulting smooth deformation.

[Pilou]

For the moment "Cage of deformation" in Moi is valuable only for the "primitives 3D" cube and sphere
You can't take an object and apply a "deformation cage" (like FFD in SU)

[remus]

rocky, i imagine bonzai is a NURBS modeller but some of it is hidden (i.e. handles on the sphere object) to try and keep things simple.

[xrok1]

could just be the way its presented, the jury is still out for me. i'm sure the b3d support team will clear it up (if they're still talking to me). in the end it doesn't really matter along as the program does what you need. to me the little things are more important, like snaps and aligning...

[bonzai3d support]

Rocky,

Thanks for your extensive suggestions. We take all user feedback very seriously, so they will certainly be considered. A few comments / clarifications:

The (missing) options to Align and Snap to Ghosted was an oversight, and will be added with the next update (in April).

While moving an object, if you enter an angle and tab to the distance filed, then the angle will be locked. (Likewise, entering a distance and tabbing to the angle field will also lock the distance and allow you to select the desired angle graphically -- or you can enter both numerically and just hit Enter to numerically modify your objects.)

Picture 36.jpg

The Shift key while moving objects toggles the Snap to Self on and off (and does not lock the object) but the idea of a modifier to lock the direction of an object sounds reasonable. (We will see what we can do. )

Arail,

Sorry to hear that you did not have sufficient time to evaluate bonzai3d with your Trial version. Please send an email to support@bonzai3d.com to request an extension, and we will see what we can do.

Rocky et al,

Bonzai3d is perhaps properly called a "hybrid" modeler. It is a solid modeler that works with both Smooth and Facetted data -- AND it also works well with Surfaces AND NURBS.

We are looking into additional file formats, but for now, NURBS objects can be imported and exported using the OBJ format.

Bonzai3d's NURBS are quite sophisticated, and we have more improvements coming. To see what you can do currently, check out these videos:

http://www.formz.com/products/bonzai3d/ ... nd_640.flv

http://www.formz.com/products/bonzai3d/ ... es_640.flv

You can also check out a few of our sample files here if you like:

http://www.formz.com/products/bonzai3d/ ... Files.html

So when you first create a Sphere in bonzai3d, it is a true sphere, with a center and radius and corresponding controls. If you want it to be a NURBS object, click on it with the NURBS Convert tool:

Picture 37.jpg

If you want to add or remove control points, use the NURBS Reconstruct tool:

Picture 38.jpg

Hope this helps!

Please let us know if you have any further questions.

[remus]

Bit of a wishy washy question to bonzai support: what do you consider the advantages and disadvantages of a hybrid system?

p.s. xrok, i'll delete/split this if its wavering too far form the subject of the topic.

[bonzai3d support]

Remus,

There are lots of advantages to a hybrid system. For example, if you draw a smooth Sphere, you have spherical controls and you can control it as a sphere (with radius, closure options, partial sphere options, etc). If you decide that you want to edit it differently, you can simply Convert it to NURBS, and manipulate it that way. And if you decide that you now want to start manipulating individual facets of the object, you can Convert it to Facetted as well. It is really the best of all worlds.

Really the only disadvantage is that there are more options and more ways to manipulate data -- so there is more to learn. But of course, you don't have to start out knowing everything to be effective. Learn and use the basics -- and just know that when you need more, there is more available.

(By the way, if anyone is interested, a bonzai3d Webinar just started and there are still a couple of spaces available. See this link to sign up if you want: http://www.formz.com/landings/webinar.html)

[xrok1]

The (missing) options to Align and Snap to Ghosted was an oversight, and will be added with the next update (in April).

very very good news!

While moving an object, if you enter an angle and tab to the distance filed, then the angle will be locked. (Likewise, entering a distance and tabbing to the angle field will also lock the distance and allow you to select the desired angle graphically -- or you can enter both numerically and just hit Enter to numerically modify your objects.)

good to know, doesn't solve the negative movement workflow though.

The Shift key while moving objects toggles the Snap to Self on and off (and does not lock the object) but the idea of a modifier to lock the direction of an object sounds reasonable. (We will see what we can do. )

i hate to argue with you about how your own software operates but... although tapping does toggle self snap, holding shift does lock direction it just doesn't do it consistently. (see attached video)

shift lockedit.avi.zip

to view delete the .zip part at the end of the name, this was added so i could upload it. if someone wants to bother (or knows how) to display it...

There are lots of advantages to a hybrid system. For example, if you draw a smooth Sphere, you have spherical controls and you can control it as a sphere (with radius, closure options, partial sphere options, etc). If you decide that you want to edit it differently, you can simply Convert it to NURBS, and manipulate it that way. And if you decide that you now want to start manipulating individual facets of the object, you can Convert it to Facetted as well. It is really the best of all worlds.

thanks for clearing that up.