Sigh... Yet another problem...

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Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:39 am

So, when rendering this shape that ive created, which is nothing more than a basic donut shape, i keep getting this damned seam in it, on this same edge every time, no matter what i do. I redo the model, i still get it, i flip the circle around, i still get it in the same place, it never goes away, the model is perfectly smooth according to SU, and its drving me batty.

Here is the circle


In SU.

render 1


First render. (note the seam on the front edge)

and render 2 was made after rotating the circle 180 degrees (i made one side white to make sure)


The second render after i rotated the circle, STILL ON THE FRONT EDGE!

If i render it from the other side it still shows up on the edge facing the camera. It would seem that kerkythea knows there is an edge there and somehow, even though its smoothed in SU it still shows.

Also as a side note, the faces of the shapes dont look perfectly flat, in the renders and in SU, even though according to SU and the various tests ive done to make sure the faces are all perfectly flat. I dont understand that one.

Also is there any way to speed up the zoom speed using the mouse wheel in Kerky? Its stupidly slow at times, even with a very large scale model, or a very slow one (ive tried both) the camera zooms soooooo slow it sometimes takes me ten minutes to scroll through what is only about 5 feet in the actual model.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Ivica Valjak » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:41 am

Look inside your donut and you will probably find face that is giveing you problem.Click on face of donut and right click-hide face.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:43 am

That was a problem i had with the circle the first time i made it, but i made sure it wasnt there this time.

Here it is with the front face hidden:


If it helps, it was made using follow me. I made half of a face, flipped it to make the other side, then pulled it around a circle to create the whole thing. So both sides are exactly the same.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby solo » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:44 am

Can you post the skippy?

What renderer are you using?
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:45 am

Im using kerkythea, and for some reason the file size is like 8 MB (no idea why, ive deleted all the extra stuff) so ill host it on the warehouse.

Odd, after uploading it says its only 2MB (still bigger than it should be though)

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... b602a605b9
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:45 am

Well, no wonder the size - there are rather high-poly objects in it!
Yet I found unnecessary faces inside the group with the triangle and the cross, too. You can tell they are there when editing the groups and selecting the front face - it does not select the whole (although it should since the whole is smoothed).

Delete those, too - though they will not considerably affect the file size.

For rendering it is OK - the more high poly you have, the smoother the final render will be.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:46 am

Yeah i forgot about those, they are far enough away from the camera that you dont notice it.

But that doesn't explain my problem with the circle. :evil:
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:46 am

But you have solved the problem with the circle, haven't you?
Have you rendered the scene ever since?
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:47 am

the circle never had the problem of interior faces. The last image was to show that there wasnt an inside face that was causing the problem.

I still have this problem. Here is a render i just did looks terrible because i have a ground level plane AND a global on at the same time, but you can see the line.

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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:48 am

Yes, that line is apparently there. I also ran some test renders with Kerky and the same result. I even raised the smooth/soften percentage to 100 % in SU but nothing. I just cannot imagine what causes it.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:48 am

Gaieus wrote:I just cannot imagine what causes it.

Thats what im saying... Its very irritating, because thats supposed to be a smoothed edge according to SU. I would make this stuff in blender, but im still trying to figure that program out.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:49 am

Maybe try to do that extrusion along the ring again. I can imagine that there is a very-very small "gap" in between that maybe even SU cannot "notice" (there is a tolerance level in it). I just zoomed in so much I could almost already see the electrons running up and down but could not see any defect in there.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:49 am

ive done it three times using a different method each time. the first method was to create one half, flip it, position it, then make a face and use follow me to go around the side.
Extruded a face around a circle.
Extruded half a face around a circle, mirrored it, and lined it up.
Same result each time.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:49 am

I have also cut it in half, mirrored it and reglued to each other (hoping that the other side is "OK" as there isn't anything visible problem there) but the same result.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:49 am

Yeah i think later on ill be moving on to the Kerky forums to try and get one of the higher ups to come to my rescue. I happen to like this scene, i think it looks nice with the simple shapes and my handle. The shapes btw are Playstation controller buttons. I have a 1600x1200 render as my desktop but at that resolution that line sticks out like a sore thumb and id like to get rid of it.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:50 am

Yeah, I was just about to suggest you to visit the Kerky forums. There, in the "Integration" category there is a SU subforum for issues like this. Maybe it is an export glitch, I don't know.
Tomasz can tell there.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby solo » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:51 am

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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:53 am

solo wrote:


Well i still see the line, so its still there... But that does look nice, very nice materials. I have a similar red car paint type material that i managed to pound out after spending about 3 hours on the kerky forums looking at how tos and stuff. I would post a picture of it but my PC is so ridiculously old that ive been rendering this 200x200 image for the last 2 hours. The ray tracing alone took 3688 seconds, or 61 minutes.

But when its done ill put it up i guess.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Nick W » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:54 am

Masta Squidge (name?), if you haven't already solved this problem, I would think that the problem might be in K, not in SU. I have limited experience in K, but try the smoothing setting for the material you apply to the donut.

The folks at the K forum are great about helping too, and could probably identify the issue quickly.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:54 am

My name is Rob or RJ if you wish. I havent already solved this, but the smoothing has been tried. Its starting to get irritating lol.

But at the moment im working on putting a mini install of XP on one of the computers sitting in my room, so ill get to this mess later.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Fletch » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:55 am

ok RJ, I d/l'd your model, and had a theory it was a SU UV mapping thing... will try some things and let you know. initial tests were inconclusive but not heartening.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Fletch » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:57 am

I have concluded that it's the shape. Unless you can build it in blender, render it, and get it to look any different. I re-built the object myself at large size (50'radius) and very high poly 100 segments per curve, and smoothed in SU)

My tests all show the 'line' you are seeing. If you notice, it's not only on the inside but also around the outside of the shape it is where the normal of the face is no longer coplaner to the inside or outside 'flat' face of the donut. I think that if you were to create this form in real life there would possibly be something similar in it's reflections as well, but perhaps I am mistaken. it probably would be there, but just not as pronounced as in the SU model rendered here. I do not believe this is a KT issue, but perhaps it is, I have been wrong before. I think it's possibly a SU2KT issue, if my theory about the fact the shape is going to reflect light like it is because that's the shape it is.

I lit this in 1 second using an HDRI, I rendered this with MLT preset 7 passes, in less than 4 mins.

I applied a material in SU, then set it to be the diffuse color of the object, set the reflectivity to be 1.0 The material here was not physically accurate, but was to test if UV mapping the object would help. Because the object now had UV coords from SU I was able in KT to go to Window>BitmapCoordinates and change the UV style to Spherical. Later I changed the .jpg map in the diffuse to power of .05, set the reflectivity to .95 (.95+.05=1.0=physically accurate material, properly built for KT) and it rendered like the last picture here. the 'line' you see is still there... but again, I think it's because it's physically accurate to how this object would actually reflect light.



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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Fletch » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:59 am

in addition, the 'smoothing' of KT only applies to 3ds and .obj models... not models exported with SU2KT... they will use the smoothing from SU2KT's action from SU. If smoothing an object from SU in KT with the r-click-smooth option, results will vary from bad to not-so-good. :D
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Gaieus » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:59 am

Thanks Fletch,

It was driving me crazy, too that I could not find an answer in SU (I do not know as much about Kerky as you therefore I had no clue what and how to change there).
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Masta Squidge » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:59 am

I think what the problem is (after reading your great post) is that the radius of the edge is small enough so that it just looks like a mistake. or something to that effect, because it would be there in reality, it just wouldn't be so blatantly obvious as it is in the renders. Your renders make it look normal, while the render i made, at the angle i want it, makes it look terrible.
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby Fletch » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:00 am

I can ask Clipi and Tomasz what they think. Perhaps Giannis will take a peek, it would be good to get confirmation.

I've only used KT since last October. It doesn't take long to become proficient, but then I had several years rendering experience before that (like 10yrs) and I took to KT like a duck in gold water. Try HDR lighting, it's instantaneous, and you'll like it. Check my latest WIP on the KT forum. to see a building with HDR lighting on it. Then I just mask render in the background (there's a tut. for d/l on the KT home page download sections if you don't know how this is done.)

keep up the great work!
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby modelhead » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:01 am

No solution for you but..... ballpark 5000 edges in that little round model. I would expect it to behave in an unusual way.
Cheers

edit: I rendered it in Indigo and the line disappeared. Indigo renders without any type of bias I believe. I tried podium and it coughed up it's lunch a couple of times and then rendered the line.

Could it be the type of rendering engine that makes a difference??
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Re: Sigh... Yet another problem...

Postby modelhead » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:02 am

I found this little face on the inside of the donut that is behaving badly...it is right in line with the line that you are trying to get rid of...not sure that it is the problem but it is the only face that acts this way. I have tried replacing it but it comes back with that funny shading like a dual face would.

The other interesting thing was if you export to 2d in SU the shadows on the face are normal...it just disappears. In order to get this picture i had to take a screen shot.

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