Vertex tools

Vertex tools

Postby bosvariant » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:15 pm

Hello,

I am now using vertex tools from Thomthom.

It's a great tool also to pickup and place copies. With the standard cursor it's often a crime.

But, it looks like that Vertextool only works with a exploded group.

Is that true? That should be really a pity because you can't use vertex tools for pick up and place groups or combination of groups. That should be really really a pity.

Who can give some help?

Willem
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby cotty » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:57 pm

It's called vertex tools, so it works with vertices. You can edit a group (you don't need to explode it!) and use the Vertextools there...
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby Rich O Brien » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:26 pm

I'd put in a feature request to the Dev Thomthom to make the Gizmo active on Groups.

It's a good feature to have. Similar to other apps that use a Gizmo as the primary translation tool on objects.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby function » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:00 am

the wikii tools combin' editor is good for that. Mine works on 2016 but I believe it conflicts with dynamic components somehow
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby pbacot » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:48 pm

Yeah. I don't think you can move objects, except because you are moving vertices, the attached faces and edges move too. Problem I have with gizmo is you can't snap- move/ reference.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:49 pm

pbacot wrote:Problem I have with gizmo is you can't snap- move/ reference.

How would move-snapping work? Given that with the gizmo you don't pick points on the geometry itself.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby pbacot » Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:11 pm

I guess that option would have to be added? Or after activating be able to pick points to snap start and end (sort of like Fredoscale target move). I'd like to make soft select then move a point on the edge to match another point in the model, in joining shapes up.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:59 am

In the case of moving a single vertex one could use that as a base reference point to snap to/from. But the moment you have multiple vertices - it's not clear how snapping would work.
I'd love to hear ideas.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:13 pm

thomthom wrote:In the case of moving a single vertex one could use that as a base reference point to snap to/from. But the moment you have multiple vertices - it's not clear how snapping would work.
I'd love to hear ideas.


I think this is something I also missed and made me quit vertex tools.

If you have a multiple vertices you could still use one as reference or you could use the average of all vertices as reference. I'd really find a whole new set of uses for vertex tools if this was true as accuracy would allow me to model arch projects and not only free form models.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:43 pm

JQL wrote:If you have a multiple vertices you could still use one as reference or you could use the average of all vertices as reference. I'd really find a whole new set of uses for vertex tools if this was true as accuracy would allow me to model arch projects and not only free form models.

How do you get accuracy if you pick one random vertex as reference point for snapping - or even the average? The expected behaviour is ambiguous - which is one of the main reason it hasn't been added yet.

When you use the non-gizmo tools you get snapping. Because then you have an explicit input point as reference.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:27 pm

Why is it random if you pick the top vertice, for instance. If the topmost vertice is correctly inferenced and the bottom vertixe is at 0, I can be sure of the total height of a given "vertex sculpture". So even a lot of the geometry processes are intuitivelly defined, there can also be a geometric confinement where at least some crucial vertexes can be controlled.

If you have a simpler triangulated roof and want to manipulate it, you can't using vertex tools though it would be nice.

If you want to define a car model that has a precise lenght you cannot do it with any kind of accuracy.

I think it's a shame as it restricts vertex tools use, but you're the developer and you've done a hell of job already, so I'm probably not seeing the whole picture.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby pbacot » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:36 pm

I guess I want a way to target move using a start and stop point (snapped) while having soft select, but maybe that doesn't jibe with what soft select is doing.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:28 pm

JQL wrote:Why is it random if you pick the top vertice, for instance. If the topmost vertice is correctly inferenced and the bottom vertixe is at 0, I can be sure of the total height of a given "vertex sculpture".

The difficult thing is figuring out what people would expect. You say top-most vertex in this case, what if they are all on the same plane? Which vertex do you use as a base point then? (Inference snap in all directions.) And what makes top-most vertex more logical than bottom-most?
For snapping to be reliable there needs to be some predictability.

pbacot wrote:I guess I want a way to target move using a start and stop point (snapped) while having soft select, but maybe that doesn't jibe with what soft select is doing.

That you can already do by using the Move tool in Vertex Tools.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:53 pm

thomthom wrote:The difficult thing is figuring out what people would expect. You say top-most vertex in this case, what if they are all on the same plane? Which vertex do you use as a base point then? (Inference snap in all directions.) And what makes top-most vertex more logical than bottom-most?
For snapping to be reliable there needs to be some predictability.


I don't think you understood the original FR. When you use Fredo Box Scale to target, for instance, you scale your object by using any reference point, even points which do not belong to the object.

When I said I wanted to align topmost point, it was an example. In fact, what I think would be nice, would be for your users to:
- Hit scale and then;
- Choose a reference point in the object;
- Use inferencing system to align it to any other reference point in model.

That vertice would scale to that inference and all other vertexes would scale porportionally.

The point you'd choose would be user defined, not automatically chosen by the plugin. If this would be true for most commands, like move vertices, extend faces, etc, it would be very interesting as it would become less visual guessing and more accurate.

This lack of accuracy is the main thing that prevents me from using vertex tools so I imagine there are other people in the same situation.

If you want I can create a gif to make it clearer.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby pilou » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:23 am

Yes please image(s)! :)
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:05 pm

Are we not talking about the Gizmo any more?
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:39 pm

pilou wrote:Yes please image(s)! :)


I have to reinstal Vertex tools. It will take some time.

thomthom wrote:Are we not talking about the Gizmo any more?


Yes I believe we could be talking about it:
- If you select the area you want to affect and then you are able to place the gizmo on the reference vertex, you could then scale, move, rotate, etc, in a way that it would then snap to an inference in the model.

I am not able to do an animated mockup of the gizmo though... I could try making a still image of the gizmo mockup if you'd like...
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:23 pm

JQL wrote:Yes I believe we could be talking about it:
- If you select the area you want to affect and then you are able to place the gizmo on the reference vertex, you could then scale, move, rotate, etc, in a way that it would then snap to an inference in the model.

Right, so you actually invoke an explicit pick of the reference point up front. That's an interesting idea. Basically, the inference will relate to the gizmo origin - then that combined with better custom placement of the gizmo. Do I interpret that right?
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:10 pm

Yes, I believe you are interpreting it right!

It would be very cool if you'd want to further think on that subject. Having inference for scaling, moving and rotating would be key for accuracy.

Usually when people move the gizmo around in other software (take a look at Layout for instance) it acts as the reference point for the move, or a center point for rotate or scale.

This would be probably the intuitive aproach and my starting idea. Scaling or Rotating from the centerpoint using a point and an inference for accuracy might be trickier though.

Moving the gizmo to a vertice or a model reference, and then moving that point to a precise place, while keeping the gradient effect and affecting the mesh would be intuitive.

Moving the gizmo, as a centerpoint for rotation would also work nicelly, especially if it would also for a numeric angle input.

Moving the gizmo and use it as the center point for scale would also be great and also with a numeric input for multiplier.

However having the gizmo move and then also allow for a reference point to move/rotate to an inference, would probably require an off gizmo aproach.

You can see that on FredoScale box scaling/box stretching to target and also on fredo scale rotation. It works great and intuitivelly.

In your tool, in order that you can stay on the tool and keep using the gizmo without interruption, you would probably require a modifier key to be pressed while you were either scaling or rotating. It would then triger the reference+inference mechanism which would allow you to choose the reference point with a click and a Sketchup inference with a second click.

For scale, it would then move the point from it's original position to the inference and the mesh would scale proportionally from the gizmo placement.

For rotate, it would rotate the point towards the inference, as the Sketchup rotate tool does.

What Sketchup isn't able to do is everything else VErtex tools is able to.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby pbacot » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:18 pm

I'm with you guys.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby thomthom » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:29 pm

This is good stuff. Once I get SUbD v2 out the door VT 2 is on the radar - and the Gizmo is top on the list.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:51 pm

thomthom wrote:This is good stuff. Once I get SUbD v2 out the door VT 2 is on the radar - and the Gizmo is top on the list.


Great!
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby Bob James » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:16 am

Great news!

I hope that the ability to select "horizontal" when selecting the "make planar" and select which vertex will be the one that determines the height of the plane. 8-)

Similarly, the ability to select a row of vertices and put them into a straight horizontal line with the z-height determined by a specific vertex.

I'm confused: the current version already has that great gizmo. :?:
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby Rich O Brien » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:46 am

Bob James wrote:I'm confused: the current version already has that great gizmo. :?:


It does Bob. But the gizmo is lacking XY | ZX | ZY translations and the scaling handles need to snap incrementally.

Also the translation handles need to accept numeric input.

That said VT is still the best extension ever made :thumb: IMHO
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:04 pm

Rich O Brien wrote:That said VT is still the best extension ever made :thumb: IMHO


That is clearly wrong, the best one is Edgetools2 splitface tool along with SectionCutFace
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby Box » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:28 pm

Not that I care, but in the interests of accuracy, you need two tools to beat Rich's one.
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby Rich O Brien » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:46 pm

Fo shizzle...

There's also something brewing called ReMeshR....

Image 1.png


Image 2.png


:P
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:19 pm

Box wrote:Not that I care, but in the interests of accuracy, you need two tools to beat Rich's one.


Let's say I can't decide which one of them is the best, I'd put them both above everything else basically. :)
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby JQL » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:20 pm

Rich O Brien wrote:Fo shizzle...

There's also something brewing called ReMeshR....

Image 1.png


Image 2.png


:P


So there is sound on that silence!
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Re: Vertex tools

Postby Rich O Brien » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:14 pm

Quietly moving forward.

WrapR goes to open beta soon.
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