Education! Your thoughts?

[Mike Lucey]

Hi Guys,

While visiting TED last night I came across Ken Robinson's talks. He is a very funny guy and I enjoyed him immensely. I think he believes in what I call I like to call the 'Laugh n' Learn' way of teaching. I found in my schooling years that I always learned more from the teachers that had a good sense of humour and were able to 'mix' this with what they were teaching.

If you have some time on you hands, check out Ken's talks [ http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_s ... vity.html/ ] and [ http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robins ... ution.html ]

I often wonder if our present methods of teaching, student attends school, is fast becoming outdated with the advent of the Net and high speed broadband. Today it has effected the way many people work, not having to 'clock in' to offices everyday and I am wondering if the same might soon be the case for student and traditional schools.

As we now know, there are many kinds of intelligence, however the one that seems to be concentrated on and rewarded the most in our current schooling system is academic intelligence. This is a great pity as a lot of students don't flower and blossom until after their schooling years!

I have seen mentioned that there were 7 kinds of intelligence but now there seems there could be 9!
The Nine Types of Intelligence.

Could and should schools be much broader learning platforms whereby they would be more involved with real world work places, the bakery, the shop, the surgery, the garage, the workshop etc etc?

After all, kids can often show their specialised intelligence / aptitude at early stages and being introduced to various work / lifestyles could only help them to identify what they like and are good at also might like to pursue.

This surely would also have great benefit as the students would have a direction and possibly be more focused.

[Marian]

As somebody who has a BA and an MA I agree that the education system needs to change. I will very likely never work in the fields I studied academically, they weren't a complete waste of time but if the system would have been focused on polishing and bringing out skills then I would probably be now working doing something I enjoyed than being still unemployed.

[Trogluddite]

Thanks for the link, Mike, looks really interesting from my first quick scan. And I quite agree, education and enthusiasm go together like fish and chips!
My ideal teacher - that's easy, anyone from the UK of a certain age will know just what I mean when I say, "Johnny Ball"!

@Marian. I sympathise your situation - I have spent many years of my adult life left unable to work due to forces beyond my control. I wish you every luck in finding a good employer.
I am very fortunate in the job I have now - but it has come about precisely because of interests that I took up as hobbies as a kid, some of which were encouraged as "extra-curricular" activities by inspiring teachers who did not see the passing of exams as the 'be all and end all' of education.

The 'box ticking' and 'exam league tables' are what annoy me most about the current education system here - the kind of practical/creative skills that Mike speaks of do not lend themselves well to that form of "intellectual accountancy", discouraging even the most open-minded and enthusiastic of teachers from nurturing talents that cannot be reduced to metrics (if they are even allowed the time and resources to do it).
The other side of the coin, surely, is the short-termism of the 'flexible job market'- almost gone are the apprenticeships by which industry invested time in training talented youngsters; the industrial era equivalent to a father passing the skills of his trade to his son in days long gone. This leaves school 'picking up the slack' to prepare kids for work - leading to an ever narrower curriculum targeted at the needs of large scale employers (almost exclusively 'service industries') - boring subjects in preparation for boring jobs, little wonder if the kids don't pay attention in class.

[Mike Lucey]

That's a good take on things Steve.

Something that I've experienced over the past few years when dealing with other 'professionals', particularly doctors! There is an abundance of very good and reliable medical information on the Net, a lot of it new research results than I imagine not even the most diligent of doctors could hope to keep up with. I find some of these doctors resent the patient knowing 'too much' about their particular ailments

As I said, this can be the case for other areas as well. The Net is only beginning to change the way people can gain reliable knowledge / educate themselves and I would like to see a lot more it happening in the future.

I think we could even take SketchUcation as an example. Over the past 6 years I have seen many total Newbies coming here with very little experience in CAD or any sort just a willingness to learn.

By reading, trying out and asking questions many of the Newbies have quickly turned themselves into 3D experts to some degree. While it may well have been possible to reach the desired level of competence via traditional classroom training, I think the online learning platform has in many cases proven to have been just as good if not better in some ways simply because they are interacting with numbers of more knowledgeable users that are willing to impart information / techniques. In the classroom situation it may well be just the teacher that is more knowledgeable

[liam887]

I think we could even take SketchUcation as an example. Over the past 6 years I have seen many total Newbies coming here with very little experience in CAD or any sort just a willingness to learn.

By reading, trying out and asking questions many of the Newbies have quickly turned themselves into 3D experts to some degree. While it may well have been possible to reach the desired level of competence via traditional classroom training, I think the online learning platform has in many cases proven to have been just as good if not better in some ways simply because they are interacting with numbers of more knowledgeable users that are willing to impart information / techniques. In the classroom situation it may well be just the teacher that is more knowledgeable

]

I agree.

I was treading water in University for a long time. If it wasn't for the internet and forums such as this I would not have been able to interact with the people I have and it turn have the job I do.

I think working in a creative field University is not what it once was. The five years I spent (and spent £££) in University I could have just as well invested in a better computer, materials and training and got where I am much faster. I know its different depending on what field you are in so this isn't the case for most other people.

I dropped out after five years and have never been asked for any sort of reference from Uni or qualifications in any jobs I have done in the last two years.

Now that the fees ( in the UK at least ) have risen to over £9000 per year a lot of people are re-thinking higher education versus working. I now lecture and teach students at BA and Masters level and can feel a lot of discontent among them with how education is going and if any, what impact it has on getting a job.

[jason_maranto]

I am a walking advertisement for the failure of the public school system here in America.

As a bit of background, in my 6th grade year (11 years old) I was failing all of my classes -- and the teachers were concerned that I may have some sort of severe learning disability (using politically correct terminology here), so the school had me tested. They were surprised to instead learn that I was highly gifted... nobody had ever asked me why I didn't pay attention in class (because it was beyond boring).

This could have been the end of the story, except that instead of moving me into a school for gifted kids (as was the common procedure with this type of thing) they kept me in regular classes because they were afraid I would be a disruptive influence on the other gifted kids (I had a bit of a reputation by that point, I come from the wrong side of the tracks as they say).

Needless to say I became a High School dropout by 15, got my GED just after my 16th birthday (which was the earliest I could take the test) and briefly flirted with college when I was 17 (which was just as boring). But mostly I worked (I was an emancipated minor by then) and learned whatever I wanted to by doing it myself and reading books -- of course the later advent of the internet became a great accelerator of that process.

As a result, I have a great deal of disdain for structured education on the whole -- and while I enjoy teaching, I would never work in a school environment.

However, had the public school system done the right thing with me, who knows how things might have been different.

Best,
Jason.

[Trogluddite]

Another University dropout here too. I always thought that electronic engineers made useful gizmos, and was shocked to find out that all we did was number-crunch equations (the kind that working engineers just go and look up somewhere when they need them!) - and did coursework in Management Studies (screwing your workforce) and Marketing (deceiving your customers).
I realised long after that the purpose of my degree course was not to teach me to be a better engineer, but to gain a piece of paper that would let me 'jump the queue' into a management position with an employer, or to be a perennial academic - neither of which appeal to me at all.
That was twenty years ago, and I see no improvement - I squirm every time I see that media 'meme' about 'further education' being worth 'on average £xx,000 salary per year'

School, I am ambivalent about - like anything else, teaching can be done well, or badly. My science teachers were truly inspirational, and encouraged the interest that I already had, having identified it almost instinctively - so I did well, despite being uncomfortable with learning 'en masse' in a noisy classroom.
History, which I now know to be both fascinating and incredibly informative about the present - hated it. The teacher was, as far as I could tell, utterly uninterested in the subject (Bored of the repetition? His pet specialism not on the curriculum?)
Like it or not, school will always have an agenda - it is run by politicians when all said and done. It just ain't there to be interesting or informative, it is there to prepare students for the rough and tumble of becoming a cog in the machine. Some talented teachers are able to overcome that to a degree, but from my experience having worked as a school lab' tech', and folks I know with similar jobs, those kind of teachers are being driven away - they are dangerous, they teach people to think for themselves, they teach that there is more than just 'knowing your place' and being content with it.

Saddest of all, so many parents are content, or even expect as a 'right', that education is to be 'outsourced' wholly to the professionals. For sure, there are 'technicalities' that only a professional can pass on - but it is family, neighbours and friends who taught me knitting, gardening, the joy of a good book, a sense of moralty... and most of all to love learning itself. You don;t need a teaching certificate or limitless resources to pass on that - we are all teachers.

[solo]

Got a MS Food science ...I do 3D for a living.


say no more.

[Trogluddite]

He he, cooking - now I wish someone had taught me that! (only offered to girls at my old school from what I remember - only boys in tech' drawing and woodwork too!).

For 3D - just buy your kids some Legos - better than all the engineering textbooks I ever read!.

[d12dozr]

Funny you bring this up now Mike - I've been learning lately about how our school system is broken, and how the Internet can help fill this need.

Here's some great reading on the topic - stuff that I've been using to form an educated opinion on the subject...
Hacking Higher Education Series

All education – even college education – is fundamentally self-education.

A series of posts teaching people how to graduate faster with an accredited degree.

Back to (the wrong) school
From the always-insightful Seth Godin:

Large-scale education was never about teaching kids or creating scholars. It was invented to churn out adults who worked well within the system.

...and a much more detailed manifesto by Mr. Godin on the same topic: Stop Stealing Dreams (references Sir Ken Robinson's ideas)

The economy has changed, probably forever.

School hasn't.

School was invented to create a constant stream of compliant factory workers to the growing businesses of the 1900s. It continues to do an excellent job at achieving this goal, but it's not a goal we need to achieve any longer.

In this 30,000 word manifesto, I imagine a different set of goals and start (I hope) a discussion about how we can reach them. One thing is certain: if we keep doing what we've been doing, we're going to keep getting what we've been getting.

Our kids are too important to sacrifice to the status quo.

Personally, I think that online classes like Khan Acaedemy and Skillshare are going to have a big influence on education for the next generation.

I've been asked by my local makerspace to teach Sketchup there - this is a form of education that I think will be more common in the future. People(employers and entrepreneurs alike) want results rather than a expensive college degree, and this whole idea of democratizing resources(whether its tools, education, or something else entirely) lets regular people perform like never before.

We're going to see a whole lot more of self-education thing if the mega-corporations and politicians don't eff up the Internet before then.

[Mike Lucey]

Interesting links there Marcus. I will check them out as I am interested in learning more about the various trends that are now taking place, particularity in how the Net is being used for 'online' education.

Also its interesting to look at how various Countries are going about educating its populace.

Finland is an example of how a Country can and should think outside the box! No formal exams until the student reaches 17 - 18 years! This can only be a good system as it allows the student to develop their possibly hidden talents How Finnish schools shine

[tomasz]

I have had two passions when I have had to decide what I would like to study. The First was shaping 3d space and the second was programming. I have chosen architecture, because I knew I couldn't design buildings without "official" qualifications. I knew I could be self-taught programmer.

I am a fully qualified architect now and learn how to program in C++. An important fruit will be an integration of Thea with SketchUp. I dream of an architectural modeller in which I could merge my two passions. Who knows, time will tell...

It is not an easy thing, because I have to think as Ken described in an "organic" fashion. I had to leave the "linear" thinking and let my other branch grow. It is growing for some time now, some of you know, I have written few Ruby plugins. Living in an "organic" manner is not easy. Some people say : "What about your CAREER?" and similar things. I have to listen to my heart and follow it. I want to develop all talents I discover in me.

I fully agree with Ken. I guess the revolution in education has also to be organic!

[Mike Lucey]

Hi Tomaz, Glad you liked what Ken Robinson says, it was definitely thought provoking. The main thing that I took with me from his talk was that educating / training/ learning can and should be continuing throughout one's life.

From my experience people both young and old are in a far more happier state of mind when they are learning something new provided its something they are interested in and its at their own pace. Consumption does not deliver anything like the same satisfaction! But alas, there are far more rubbish time wasting things marketed and sold than mind informing / exercising things.

Here are some amusing and interesting facts about the brain!
Brain Health – Fascinating Facts About the Human Brain

http://www.spiritofhealthkc.com/portfol ... man-brain/

One that caught my attention was,

Psychology of Your Brain

You can’t tickle yourself because your brain distinguishes between unexpected external touch and your own touch.

Never thought about it much, but its strange when you do.

[d12dozr]

Along these lines...

[jpalm32]

I am so sick & tired of jerks telling us what's wrong with the USA.
Clean your own houses!

[Mike Lucey]

John, it's one of your own (Marcus from Minnesota) that posted the grahpic. It does make a point though. If a State doesn't have the foresight to invest in its youths education they will sufer in the long run. The Nordic countries are a good example of how it can be done also China, the 'one to watch', is investing heavily in education.

I am a strong admired of the USA for many reasons but as it holds itself up to be imitated, it has to take the constructive critism also in my opinion.

[Mike Lucey]

John, it's one of your own (Marcus from Minnesota) that posted the grahpic. It does make a point though. If a State doesn't have the foresight to invest in its youths education they will sufer in the long run. The Nordic countries are a good example of how it can be done also China, the 'one to watch', is investing heavily in education.

I am a strong admired of the USA for many reasons but as it holds itself up to be imitated, it has to take the constructive critism also in my opinion.

Mike

[Starling75]

[pbacot]

Yes that OWS poster is American, just told from a foreign point of view to make a comparison.

Student debt in-total in the US has surpassed credit card debt (which we all know has long been out of hand). So what are we going to be doing with all these young people without work, already having crippling debt? They sure aren't going to be buying those cars and houses, which we so like to base our economy on.

And meanwhile I have a couple friends in Canada, now retired, who are obtaining advanced degrees at university FOR FREE! So yeah, wtf?