SketchUp 2016 is here....

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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby derei » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:46 pm

pbacot wrote:I didn't think you paid for a version, but subscribed to updates and maintenance for the year.

I don't think people deserve input into a product. Nice when it happens. We can just go elsewhere. On the other hand it doesn't take special interests or particular input to know what needs doing in SketchUp ; like ability to handle weightier models, better rendering (just something like Visualizer integrated--not full rendering). That is, graphic, UI, and performance improvements, which are not use-specific.

Yes, you are right partly... subscribed to updates, so everyone got what they paid for (maintenance releases were always free, if i know right).

But then, if they throw you an extra icon, or just small adjustments and they say "here it is, your updates you subscribed for", makes it right? There shouldn't be any control of at least decent amount of updates you get? There is customer protection for all goods you physically buy, why shouldn't be for software too?

And about customer input, let's see... this forum is the eldest in matter, I would bet here are the best SU specialists you can find, so when you do a niche program (because SU is a niche program - for 3d makers/artists of all kind), you'd better hear what they have to say.
I agree they "don't have to listen", but again, they don't have to have success with it either... is up to them if they choose to listen, or not. But who knows what future will bring?
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:51 pm

derei wrote:If I understand correctly what you want to say, is that "Trimble knows best and we should relax and trust the Master".


You didn't understand correctly.

Having something that works is an asset that nobody can take away from Trimble. However, having it underdeveloped is a way to make it decay over time.

derei wrote:If is that, I have to disagree. Trimble knows s#it. They only know their pocket. So, why to pay developers to improve sketchup when they can use them in other projects where more money come? And just to have reasons to push a new license, to ask for new money, they just added quickly some changes... which I hardly suspect it took all maybe around one month with testing/debugging and fee weekends. But yey, one week work and some $$$$$ in their account.


Even if I overall think you're overreacting, I think we are on the same page as to feeling development isn't pointing the right way and we are lacking many features.


How things SHOULD be, would be COMMON SENSE. Yes, I agree that everyone asks for their own scope... and apparently isn't a common request. But in reality there is. Just need to look for it.
Other platforms and websites (weebly) have a very nice system: you can post a number of requests. And you also have a limited number of votes which you can use to vote for other requests. And in time, some of the requests will start to rise above, to reveal the true needs. Is so simple...


As I was trying to say, many of the feature requests are very narrow scoped, but some really do fit everyone's needs. They're easy to track and the Sketchup team should follow all the clues scattered all around the forums.

I like that voting idea, it's also as Substance works their Feature Requests and it leads to a more responsible way of asking for FR and also to a more certain way of knowing what are the main users concerns.

Another criticism I have on Sketchup development is that all the features that have been launched, stall the minute they've been launched. They get no upgrades, improvements on usability, increased possibilites... They just are there and all their limitations or potentials freeze...

I mean:
- Solid tools has seen no further development;
- Dynamic components have seen very little development;
- Texturing tools have been like they are for since I remember;
- Sections are as simplistic as they've ever been;
- All inspectors have no improvements;
- Even plugin management or UI is random at best...
- Classifier hasn't been further evolved
- ...

Why they've been in that vegetative state of development I can't know... Are they perfect already?

Or aren't they worth developing.

The major feature that kept being developed was Layout.

That is the main difference in software that makes people need of having Sketchup Pro (disregarding the fact that you must licence it to use commercially.)

The real question here is, as I said before, all these features work, but all of them are limited and could be working so much better, be ahead of competition in every aspect and still be true to Sketchup simple use.

We have them, but they just are not the cutting edge... I don't believe Sketchup want's them to be, hence the last statement:

JQL wrote:Sincerelly, the problem is that Sketchup simply works and even if it could be way better than it is, it is still fit for everyone.

Trimble are certainly aware of that.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby utiler » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:07 am

kaas wrote:You should be able to drag the tray to the second monitor though.



You can actually. I do just that.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby jolran » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:35 am

Looks like some major core changes that may not be evident for many users. Layout API could potentially bring new cool plugins.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby mtno » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:40 am

OK Trimble, you want my subscription?
Then use this wonderful and dedicated forum to post here and now what development is scheduled for the next twelve months.

yours truly, disappointed.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby ashscott » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:45 pm

I used to feel frustration that Sketchup didn't get certain features with each upgrade - then I realized that there are plenty of other packages out there that had those features and I just had to learn them if I wanted those features.

What I've come to understand, and I could be wrong, is that Sketchup isn't trying to be a comprehensive CAD package as that would raise the bar for entry too high (and the purchase price too, probably).

Sketchup fills a niche and the Sketchup team are actually pretty adept at hitting that sweet spot - progressively making SU more intuitive without drowning new users in technical mumbo jumbo - I discussed this here
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:27 pm

ashscott wrote:I used to feel frustration that Sketchup didn't get certain features with each upgrade - then I realized that there are plenty of other packages out there that had those features and I just had to learn them if I wanted those features.

What I've come to understand, and I could be wrong, is that Sketchup isn't trying to be a comprehensive CAD package as that would raise the bar for entry too high (and the purchase price too, probably).

Sketchup fills a niche and the Sketchup team are actually pretty adept at hitting that sweet spot - progressively making SU more intuitive without drowning new users in technical mumbo jumbo - I discussed this here


Exactly my point. However, I don't believe that should be the way.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby ashscott » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:48 pm

JQL wrote:However, I don't believe that should be the way.


Not sure what you mean by this?

You're saying SU should try to compete with CAD packages or not?
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby TommyK » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:11 pm

I spoke to ThomThom a few months back at the Basecamp, and he complains that getting his head around LayOut's code was a hard enough task. I believe the original developers aren't around anymore. It seems the development of the LayOut C API has been sucking away most of the development time - and it should indeed be the main focus. In the same way that Ruby API for Sketchup has transformed the application, the Layout API will do the same.

Trimble have planted a seed with the LayOut C API - it will grow, in time. Be patient.

Next, the focus should be a LayOut Ruby API, and then the fun can truly begin!

For a renewal fee for under £100/year, I am content with the small offering. I am less interested in new features and tools, rather I want it to perform well, get the basics right, support 3rd party developers and the like. I got Sketchucation plugin store for new tools and features!
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:52 pm

Not compete, just finding us ways of doing our stuff effectivelly.

I've been using Sketchup for architecture and have managed to ditch CAD for good (almost as people are still working with it and I work with people...).

Sketchup is neither CAD nor BIM nor a perfect 3D modeller and even less a parametric modeller. However it has a toolset that fits all these "software cathegories".

CAD - You can Design with it and it's, apart from curves, accurate.

BIM - You can evolve your 3D model into a Classified object compatible with IFC BIM standard. However you have to manually classify something as an IFC object while this is done automatically with BIM. You can also annotate and dimension your model and even generate a report on it, however you have to have an HUGE manual labor and specific workflow with it so you are able to get that aproach. Dimensioning is still cumbersome, annotation (even with autotext leaders) is almost fully manual. Generating report has improved, but it's still generic and envolves a lot of thinking to get right. The purpose of BIM is having all these things set automatically without big thinking on the user... and in a parametric way.

PARAMETRIC MODELLING - Sketchup has developed Dynamic Components. It then froze their development. UI is cumbersome, features are insuficient, limitations are great, but the potential is there... However there are so many better things today - node base modelling being the most appealing.

3D MODELLER - This is basic what sketchup is, the above deviations allow sketchup to follow certain "trends" in the most used markets it is good for. Mainly I'm talking architecture, but there is a lot of use for sketchup in other areas too. However, features that are common to all modellers seem to be missing here. Those features would be useful for everyone. Think about texturing or very heavy poly counts, clipping problems, etc... Things that annoy everyone.

Those should be high on priority! The others could improve SU in their potentially highest priority markets... CAD packages have flooded those markets long ago...
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby pbacot » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:48 pm

JQL wrote:
ashscott wrote:I used to feel frustration that Sketchup didn't get certain features with each upgrade - then I realized that there are plenty of other packages out there that had those features and I just had to learn them if I wanted those features.

What I've come to understand, and I could be wrong, is that Sketchup isn't trying to be a comprehensive CAD package as that would raise the bar for entry too high (and the purchase price too, probably).

Sketchup fills a niche and the Sketchup team are actually pretty adept at hitting that sweet spot - progressively making SU more intuitive without drowning new users in technical mumbo jumbo - I discussed this here


Exactly my point. However, I don't believe that should be the way.


Thanks for the further notes JQL--last post.

I think Trimble IS trying to be CAD-BIM comprehensive at a particular level--note their work on LO, and BIM features, check their promotional literature RE Sonder's work etc.

The horse may have left the barn with Revit, but they may see a place for SU to do the main lifting for some professionals.

I think Blender et al. have left the barn (and probably the whole farm) with the need for more intensive modelling, if you're serious about organic, UV mapping all that stuff.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:56 pm

pbacot wrote:The horse may have left the barn with Revit, but they may see a place for SU to do the main lifting for some professionals.


I'm the perfect example of those professionals.

Sketchup is clearly filling all I need, but my needs have grown past what it can offer. At this point there are some needs that simply can't be covered with plugins.

I'm not talking about modelling but many other tasks so I can be ahead of competition.

Example:

Inference was excellent, it got slightly better. I am using the down arrow now and then, but I still can't unwrap a texture.

Not being able to unwrap a texture is closing me endless possibilities either on modelling or interaction with other tools.

The new inference system is not giving new possibilities or at least nothing that I already had, being it easier, harder or requiring a tape measure to create a guide line...

There are a lot more examples of this sort but this one I think fits all users that have applied a material and will eventually improve on their texturing skills.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby Mistro11 » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:04 am

I'm glad I didn't pay for another subscription. Ok I'm gonna be honest here and let out what I been thinking for a while now. I been using Sketchup free versions since version 6. I love this program and it is my foundation 3D modeler before I import into anything else. Last year I worked hard, made some sacrifices and saved up to buy a pro license.

The first blow that I ate was the required forced purchase of yearly maintenance which I knew I would never really use. That delayed my purchase a bit to get the extra $100. I'm glad I had it because I then got to get the 64 bit SU2015 version under my subscription. That was good. So this year, I did not renew but was anticipating to buy another year subscription IF the update was worth it for me. The new features are nice....but they are things I don't really care about (subjective opinion...I know). If I paid for this year's subscription, I would feel like I just made a $100 donation to Trimble.

I'm waiting for better UV and more mainstream texturing tools. Sketchup is way behind in this department and the software is not cheap to be lacking in such a common function found in most 3D packages. I don't think I will be paying any more money until a truly major new function is officially made. I have friends who I collaborate with that is constantly trying to talk me out of using Sketchup because I have to use Blender to deal with texturing for game assets. I always defend SU and fight them back.

So don't get me wrong, I still love this program. It's just the slightly heavy handed business model that I don't like since Trimble is now the owners of this great software. If I pay almost $700 for a product, I should be able to call for support and get maintenance fixes anytime...beyond a year for the version I have a receipt for. Please, if you're gonna ask for subscriptions, at least release more updates per year and please get it to play nice and be more compatible with other main stream 3D programs. So I will continue to watch and still use my SU but I will be sticking to my 2015 for now.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby miggy » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:33 pm

JQL wrote:
kaas wrote:* you can leave the Outliner open when running ruby scripts. Up to v2015 that could make your ruby go very slow.


It still runs much slower... Where did you find differences? If it's in autohide the problem disappears as outliner... autohides


I agree JQL:
I can confirm that the Outliner (new tab in SU2016) being open is just as horrendously slow as before.
However, this slow-down is (I believe) only really perceived when the script creates and destroys (erases) groups.

I have a script that manipulates very many (20-30+) Google Earth terrain groups written back in SUv8.
Just ran it in SU2016: my major script phase runs in 2 minutes with Outliner closed and I had to abort it (via Windows10) after 20 minutes.
Re-ran it immediately with Outliner closed and it ran in 2 minutes.... as before :-)
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby pilou » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:10 pm

Maybe because the outliner must"Write" physically thousend of things! ;)
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby kaas » Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:44 pm

miggy wrote:...
I have a script that manipulates very many (20-30+) Google Earth terrain groups written back in SUv8...

My script copies and explodes lots of groups & components. I do see a positive difference in V16 and opening / closing the outliner doesn't make any real difference.

Maybe your v8 code hasn't been optimized? You do make use of
model.start_operation("name of operation",true)?
the true flag here disables the UI which could make you code run faster. Just a thought.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby esteromx » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:32 pm

hey!!!!!!!!!!. where are the shadow button settings??????????
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby Philw » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:54 pm

Look for shadows setting under the new (Silly) Default tray.
Who wanted that feature? The old way was muck better.
Why do they fixing whats not broken but hardly ever fix what is?

Hint: BETTER MAPPING CONTROLS
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby rv1974 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:12 am

utiler wrote:
kaas wrote:You should be able to drag the tray to the second monitor though.



You can actually. I do just that.

Could you enlighten me how do you manage to do that?
In my case trays permanently glued to the right edge of the main monitor.
Edit: Just discovered double click unchaining! :D
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Last edited by rv1974 on Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby Speaker » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:33 am

The SketchUp icon size has changed because now they are made from vectors and scaled appropriately for use on high resolution displays.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby Box » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:44 am

rv1974 wrote:
utiler wrote:
kaas wrote:You should be able to drag the tray to the second monitor though.



You can actually. I do just that.

Could you enlighten me how do you manage to do that?
In my case trays permanently glued to the right edge of the main monitor.


Does this help.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby rv1974 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:59 am

Box, strange but mine behaves different way (maybe because I'm on Win7?). Only double clicking sets it free. Thank you for reply though!
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:50 am

Philw wrote:Look for shadows setting under the new (Silly) Default tray.
Who wanted that feature? The old way was muck better.
Why do they fixing whats not broken but hardly ever fix what is?

Hint: BETTER MAPPING CONTROLS


I wanted that feature. It's, for me, much better now and overall has much MUCH more options and flexibility.

For instance:
- right docking trays don't come over measurements VCB;
- you can create more than one group of stacking trays;
- Autohiding trays is a really nice feature;
- Entity info is now a static box meaning it won't make trays beneath it jump up and down;
- I can't remember more, but overall I believe we're better now.
- You can still revive the old way if you make a tray per inspector and use a short cut to call it as you probably did before. You can also use that shortcut to toggle it on and off wich is great!

There are many things unpolished that are still annoying:
- If bucket tool is called and materials are in an auto hide tray the tray isn't sliding in;
- Sliding trays should be active while the command we are using is active, (bucket tool, photomatch, soften edges, shadows... etc)
- Of course some of these commands have no tool associtated so they're transparent, so at least, the trays wich have corresponding inspectors should stay active if select tool is on when using them (I'd call the select tool a neutral state in SU)

I've mine set like this:

SU setup.jpg
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby pbacot » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:33 pm

Mac UI is still a mess.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby arail1 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:46 am

sketchuh wrote:Do you guys think is it possible any company would develop a software that is more like a hybrid of sketchup/3ds max and or modo or etc...

I really want a software that is easy to use like sketchup but has all the traditional 3d software functionality.



It's called Rhino.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby slbaumgartner » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:48 am

pbacot wrote:Mac UI is still a mess.

Yes (although "mess" is subjective, it is certainly different from the Windows UI). Essentially nothing was done in this release to correct the growing divergence between the Mac and Windows GUIs. In fact, the introduction of "trays" added a new item of difference that will make it difficult to train new users.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:19 pm

arail1 wrote:It's called Rhino.


I've been curious about it for a long time now...

It has a Thea render plugin too...

Would you find transitioning from SU to Rhino painful?
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby otb designworks » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:49 pm

I'm teaching myself Rhino right now.

I really like it; while it isn't quite SU for ease of modeling, it does have a very nice inference and customizable snapping interface that, once you figure out it's "flow", it is really very powerful. And the modeling tools are awesome; it pretty much even has a push/pull tool.

There are a ton of online video tutorials and training aids and their forum is very helpful as well. What has taken me the most time to come to terms with is that there seems to be 5 different ways to accomplish anything and there are 5 different ways to access each of the 5 different ways and trying to figure out what is fastest and most efficient is a trial and error process.

I am using the MAC version, which is still missing some functions, but I find it to be a very useful software to know how to use, especially if you need to produce STEP or IGES files. Another huge benefit to Rhino is that it can import and export darned near every file type out there, which makes it fantastic as a file converter.

I would never, however, use it for architectural work and blueprinting; to me, SU-LO is a better solution for that.
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby JQL » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:11 pm

Thansk for your answer otb!
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Re: SketchUp 2016 is here....

Postby Glenn at home » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:21 pm

sketchuh wrote:...

until there is SERIOUS competition from another new and similar software, Sketchup will always bring NO real updates to people who are screaming the loudest in the wishlist topic.

Do you guys think is it possible any company would develop a software that is more like a hybrid of sketchup/3ds max and or modo or etc...

I really want a software that is easy to use like sketchup but has all the traditional 3d software functionality.

again, I don't think Sketchup has real competitions out there. 3ds vs maya? apple vs microsfot? xbox vs ps,... Sketchup vs who??? I should stop here.


Well I think Form-Z is a serious competitor for SU with the tool sets and options it offers. Now as a general 3D modeling applications I think MOI 3D and Rhino should be considered. Been playing with Form-Z myself for a while but I am so ingrained to SU I am having trouble doing things in it as easily as I do in SU. Form-Z could use a UI over haul imho still not as bad as Blender though ;)
With the recent price increase in SU the price difference is starting to blur. I still love SU and have been using it since v2 and it's ease of use has me so spoiled.
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