Forums' Future ?

[mitcorb]

Current forum membership: 119,200. Topics: over 38,000. Comments: over 383,000. If it is going away, it will be like a glacier going away. But I will stay as long as I am able.

[pbacot]

IDK Alan. You and I may live in a rarefied world. Those companies that have useful forums are the software companies for rendering etc. Companies probably run by geeks/artists. MOST companies, I bet, have message boards because someone said they should and probably look at them more with apprehension than a way to get ideas.

EG Autodesk with SketchBook gives very nice Geek demos and blogs, but I can't make sense of their site. Sure you might find your way to some message board answers but it is NOT a holistic experience.

There's "message boards" and "forums". SUcation is an example of mixing people from many backgrounds for a fertile exchange of ideas. The way of learning is closer to the apprentice shop than you might find in many design offices today. A master or helpful Hannah is always working at a desk(top) nearby it seems.

The media is the message--the simple and transparent format is as key as the hands-on persona of the moderation to make this "place" work. The team here is irreplaceable. (Kudos--appreciation--regards ETC.) Peter

[Alan Fraser]

Agreed, Peter; but I'm not saying that Sketchucation is going away...just that in all probability it might soon have a competing/complementary space over at Trimble. True, it could be something as basic as a message board or even FAQs, but as Trimble have admitted that they 'get it' regarding SU's fiercely committed army of fans...and as the SU team will presumably have a fair degree of input as to what finally materialises over there, it would be almost worse than nothing to host some bland, meaningless board.

It doesn't have to be an either/or. Many experienced users continued to give plenty of advice over on the Google forum while still doing a great job here. I must be bad at multi-tasking, 'cos i can only handle one forum at a time...at least in any really committed way. It took me several months to migrate over here after initially trying to make a go of it at Google.

Yes, the statistics are impressive, Tim...and I might be tempted to say that they contain all the people that really matter. However, you can't get away from the fact that very few of those 120,000 actually contribute very much. A staggering 1 post in every 15 is Csaba's...10x as many as me; and I'm reasonably prolific.
Yet even if all 120,000 were to contribute something...that still only represents a paltry 4% of the total user base; and I'm pretty sure that Trimble...one way or another...would at least like to pretend that it represented all of them.

[thomthom]

A staggering 1 post in every 15 is Csaba's...

Yea - gotto do something about all that spam...

[solo]

A staggering 1 post in every 15 is Csaba's...

Yea - gotto do something about all that spam...

And if you have ever seen him type/slam you would understand that he has gone through many keyboards to get here

[thomthom]

He's a loud-typer, is he? Nearly as bad as loud-talkers. There are some at the office that sound like machineguns when they type on the keyboard.

[Alan Fraser]

You're almost as bad Thom...well half as bad.
At least Pete and Eric are down in the 1:50 region.

[jgb]

Can I put a value on Sketucation?? You bet.

I may not have a high volume of posts, but I do have a high volume of reading posts.

Virtually all the pluggins I have installed, or are pending installation, have emanated from my asking (or somebody else asking) here in SCF how to solve a problem, and 90% of the answers were to get a pluggin that has already solved that problem.

I would hazard to guess that SU would not be anywhere as useful to ANYBODY without this forum.

SU and SCF are integral in my opinion.

The RUBY API makes that possible. Second to SU itself, that has been Googles best idea yet. Funny how Goggle itself makes almost zero use of it.
The RUBY Wizards among us are the real SU developers, beyond the core SU app.

[findthong]

I considered this place are mostly used by best SketchUp users.
A lot many may find they don't want to say much because when they want answers, they found it almost the time already.
At least I feel I don't know much, and feel I'm not good enough when look at those expert answers and resources
It's funny SketchUp have the same problem as many Open-source project contributions.
Those few user percents contributed most, the 'longtail' also applied here.
And there're a few chinese site that have very nice galleries, but it's quite pity that language is barrier.

I think the new SketchUp site should aim to make the other 96 percents get involved in some way. And make life easier for the 4 percents that are here/ Not aim competing with this forum, because I think no one can . Aiming to collected the scattered SketchUp infos from around the world and make it easy to see the big pictures and updates is nice, there're so many resources you have to dig into these day. SketchUp planet would be very nice

There're many local websites, forum, facebook, twitter and blogs that need loves. Trimble should make them able to work together, it would be synergy on the world scale we should take advantage.

[Burkhard]

He,he the time we talk about Trimble is worth every penny they paid. That's marketing! Who was Trimble before Sketchup?

[Alan Fraser]

I suspect that Trimble paid a tidy sum for SketchUp. Google may have had no more use for it, but I'm sure they were well aware of its value in the broader market. That's why it's the only asset they have ever sold, rather than simply killing-off.

[Bob James]

I would hazard to guess that SU would not be anywhere as useful to ANYBODY without this forum.

SU and SCF are integral in my opinion.

The RUBY API makes that possible. Second to SU itself, that has been Googles best idea yet.

The RUBY Wizards among us are the real SU developers, beyond the core SU app.

I agree 100% on both points.

[thomthom]

The RUBY API makes that possible. Second to SU itself, that has been Googles best idea yet.

The Ruby API was added in version 4 - before Google acquired SketchUp...

[djohnson.nz]

I dont understand the licensing or legality side but SKETCHUP works as well as it does free or professional because of the great work you plugin artists do. Sketchup will continue to live and grow as long as a forum like this exists, a free version 8.xxx exists and great programmers continue to support it. Having said that, lets hope Trimble make it even better.

[Jean Lemire]

Hi folks.

THat the official SU forum be here at SketchUcation or at the Trimble site do not worry me a bit.

I regularly visit SketchUcation and the SketchUp Help Group at Google and I was also visiting the Forum at Abvent's site for a while but it has so little activity that I have neglected it since more than a year or two.

IMHO the official site shall be, and I think it is logical, at Trimble, like now it is at Google.

This written, I also think that these companies, Google and Trimble offer so many softwares that they cannot focus enough on any one of them to offer an excellent forum with all the required functionnalites like adding files to post, fancy formatting, using icons, emoticons, etc.

On the other hand, SketchUcation only focus is SketchUp. We have proven that it works since we have many more members than the Google Help group. We have a very complete depository of plugins and also offer quite a lot more in the form of tutorial, mini publications, SketchUp Books, CatchUp, etc.

This is normal since a lot of contributors here do that for free since they have a passion while programmers at Google or Trimble have a job that is not necessarily passionate.

My idea is that if Trimble open a forum dedicated to SketchUp, I only hope it is not too boring and will offer the tools that we take from granted here and that were difficult to get at Google like, among a few, the capability to add files to our posts.

Then, I will frequent it as well as SketchUcation, just to keep contact with as many users and colleagues helpers and to help as many beginners as I can, like I do now.

Just ideas.

[pbacot]

Hi folks.


My idea is that if Trimble open a forum dedicated to SketchUp, I only hope it is not too boring and will offer the tools that we take from granted here and that were difficult to get at Google like, among a few, the capability to add files to our posts.

Then, I will frequent it as well as SketchUcation, just to keep contact with as many users and colleagues helpers and to help as many beginners as I can, like I do now.

Just ideas.

From your lips to Trimble's ear. They should PROMOTE the software by (shamelessly) showing off all the best work performed on it gleaned from all the resources now available, including Sketchucation. Should also allow upload of files to forums to make them both useful and attractive to browsing users.

[jgb]

What if Trimble said....... SketchUcation would be THE Trimble forum for SU, rather than create an in-house rendition. And Trimble would assign one or two or more SU developers to dutifully monitor and respond to questions and suggestions from our membership, as would Tom or Gaius or any one of us would. I know John does, but far too infrequently.

The advantage to Trimble is having a no-cost experienced enthusiastic support website already in operation. That would save Trimble $$$$$$$, staffing and time.

In return, Trimble could offer to support the cost of operating SCF, cheap compared to setting up a parallel in-house support team.

Oh, and a promise to maintain SU Free as well.

[Jeff Hammond]

^ LOL

[Alan Fraser]

What if Trimble said....... SketchUcation would be THE Trimble forum for SU, rather than create an in-house rendition.

It'll never happen. Trimble may well have paid something in the order of $100 million for SU (second to last bullet point here) I don't think they are going to be interested in making savings in the comparative chickenfeed cost of running a forum. They have already admitted that they see SU as a platform to support the many diverse solutions they offer. SU is thus likely to be used by many people well beyond the confines of the 'modelhead' community on these boards.

This might not be a popular sentiment, but I think it's a realistic one.
This isn't to say that the forums may not have an important role to play...just not that one. It may require a re-think of strategy; but that's nothing new...they developed out of virtually nothing following the Google acquisition.

[jgb]

Setting up and maintaining an inhouse support group is not chickenfeed.
I know, having setup and maintained a few pre-web era help desks in my past. Google with their gazillion$ didn't do SU justice, and Trimble will have its hands full just supporting SU based enhancements to their products.

SCF is an out of the box ready to use support group for SU at no cost to Trimble.

No it won't function to support Trimble products at first, but after a while there could be separate forums for Trimbles SU enhanced products, akin to major pluggin threads.

[Jeff Hammond]

SCF is an out of the box ready to use support group for SU at no cost to Trimble.

SCF is it's own entity.. trimble can't just decide "hey look, a free forum already set up with 100000+ members..
let's just take it.. all we have to do it pay for the operating costs.. {Tom or Gaius} will answer questions and we'll assign two developers to monitor the whole thing "

are you not seeing that?

[jason_maranto]

I don't think it is a cost thing at all -- I think it comes down more to the idea that the current staff would have to become employees (in some form) of Trimble... this I think presents alot of issues.

First off, they would be expected to represent corporate interests in their public discourse... something I'm not sure everybody would be interested in.

Conflicts of interest would have to be strictly avoided to keep Trimble legal happy.

It's also possible that some staff may be not considered for hire by Trimble at all.

It's really not the ideal solution... for either side. That said, I cannot fathom SketchUcation ever getting a "cease and desist" order from Tirmble either.

Best,
Jason.

[Alan Fraser]

Jeff and Jason
The cost issue is the least of the worries...and I do have some experience of that myself, operating a site that not only receives numerous visits per day, but in which pretty much every one of those visits involves the upload/download of Mbs of 3D data. I still say its chickenfeed to Trimble.
There would be a multitude of logistical and legal problems in taking over SCF. These would involve changes to the site itself...and its character...which I'm not sure would be entirely welcome by most people.

Much better to stay as-is...an independent community and brainiac hothouse. A few $$$ of support would probably be welcome though.

[jgb]

Jeff and Alan, I never said (or even thought of) TAKE OVER SCF.

I implied "Work WITH SCF." No corporate buy-out of SCF. I would not want that either as it would indeed be a conflict of interest for SCF.

Google "worked with" SCF but never took full advantage of the relationship, preferring to maintain its own support site. What if Google had killed their site and SCF continued on unimpeded by that action.

SCF would have become the de-facto SU support site, whether Google provided an internal monitor or not, and whether or not Google, out of the goodness of their hearts, chose to pickup SCF's operating expenses with no strings attached. Maybe even gave us an inside contact or 2 or 3. So why not Trimble?

SketchUcation supports Sketchup, not Google nor Trimble.

[arail1]

I doubt Trimble has any interest in SketchUcation at all. Well run companies like to control everything and control emanates outwards from the center. Having some kind of quasi business relation with an entity like SCF that's not firmly in their stable would be unlikely.

[Insitebuilders]

So... crawling out of my cave to find out what is going on in the real world, I just spent a couple of hours reading the "A New Home..." thread and this one in a feeble attempt to catchup (get it.. on the future of SU as the dust settles....

I wonder though, coming late to the conversation, is it possible that the Sketchucation community could stage a mutiny of sorts? Taking over the "Free" version of SU, organizing its plug ins, help desk (this forum), and moving the entire "Free" version to a kind of ad hoc, open source platform -- which IMHO it already is (at least for construction modeling).

It seems to me that the heart of this community has always been SketchUcation. It might be time for the "Mayor" to simply move to a new role as "Chief" (R'O of course remains as Scribe) and for all you geniuses to form a council of "elders" to simply continue to offer what you already and have always done -- giving SU and Big G it's heart and soul...

IMHO, this forum is the ideal place to stage such a coup, with advertising and plugin licenses it seems to already be self-sustaining, at least it has been for us. Besides, I'm not sure what Trimble SU could bring to this community that the average user could afford (Trimble'$ $pecialized tool$).

Insitebuilders, for one, could live without Trimble, but it would be very difficult to for any of us without all of you...

/Dennis

[Jeff Hammond]

I wonder though, coming late to the conversation, is it possible that the Sketchucation community could stage a mutiny of sorts? Taking over the "Free" version of SU, organizing its plug ins, help desk (this forum), and moving the entire "Free" version to a kind of ad hoc, open source platform -

the free version is the same as the pro version with a few features not included.. it's the same source code.. so no, i don't think it's possible to do what you're suggesting.. i'm also not convinced doing something like that would be good for sketchup..

[Michaelv]

So I just learned the "news" and am stunned. Why? What the heck is wrong with me, this is just a software, that I don't even use that often. Anyway, more on that later. For now and this forum:

The part I quoted below is worth emphasizing. It is even beyond that however, because SU is beyond that. Forums are forums, but in the perspective of SU (pun intended) this forum is at least half if not more of SU intrinsic value. Think of where and what SU would be without it. without the community, without the plugins, without the collective creativity (sketchyphysics, specific plugins, the huge amount of various usage it represents etc..). the value of this collective thinking, creativity and ability to contribute and participate (through plugin development amongst others) is huge.
I don't know whose "fault" it is that this forum came about, whether it's the fundamental spirit of SU, whether it's Google serendipity, a combination thereof, whatever positive and negative forces that took it to where it is now. But the fact is NOW, that we are here, this forum and what it does and did is IMO more than half the value of SU, both on a practical level (as a tool with its possibilities) and a spiritual level (its community and how SU reached and empowered people). In 20 years, you'll have designers, engineers, who will say they did what they did, they are good at what they do, because SU and SCF existed and they came across it. It is a vector for inspiration, for imagination, for expression. That is both rare and difficult to achieve.
In a world where we desperately need more creativity, ideas development and making things rather than just services, how important is that?

Indeed. This forum is far more than just a "forum". It is a hub. It's a repository of supercharged techniques, upgrades and modifications to take sketchup from a basic, border line mediocre tool and turn it into a tailor made heavyweight contender. So much so that Sketchup users can be divided into two groups, those who SCF and those who don't. This forum is home to free thinkers, artists and altruists. A place where national borders melt away and common ground is found in the shared desired to be creative. I hope this place stays exactly as it is. Independent and largely uncensored.

Whatever the future is, whomever "owns" SU, make no mistake, even though you just legally purchased a piece of software (and its team and so on) it is not just a piece of software you have, not just a tool. Of course one is free to decide whatever one wants to do with what one owns, but make sure you realize what you'd lose if you did, it may not be worth it.
You may not own this community and its efforts, but herein lies the problem. It still came with it and it was part of the value you got. You probably paid for it too, even though you don't own it. Now it's yours whether you want it or not. It's yours to help, it's yours to enjoy, it's yours to fear, it's yours to ignore, it's yours to benefit from, it's even yours to squander. A tall order you got.
Anyone can buy an exceptional car and smash it to pieces, not everyone can buy it and make it even more exceptional.

[xiombarg]

Without the insight and information I've received from this forum, I probably wouldn't even be using Sketchup. That's the truth. Sketchucation has been an indispensable part of my whole Sketchup experience, because the program itself would have been worthless without SCF as a hub of knowledge.

I guess what it boils down to is that I don't think anybody who uses Sketchup regularly and knows about this forum will be ditching it just because some other forum comes along, regardless of whose running it.

[Gaieus]

...A staggering 1 post in every 15 is Csaba's...10x as many as me; and I'm reasonably prolific...

Don't forget that many of my posts are of "technical" nature related to running the forums and such (or do you mean I am too talkative?)