A new home for SketchUp

[d12dozr]

3D printers all have a print resolution. You just need to make sure your line segments in SU are smaller than that resolution. For example, Shapeways White, Strong & Flexible material has a print resolution of 0.2 mm, so you just make sure all your line segments are smaller than .02 mm and you're good.

Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.

This I was not sure about, I did mention that I had not tried 3D printing myself. Good information for sure, thanks

The advantage that Rhino (or similar tools) has over SU in this case is resolution is set when you export, and you can adjust it automatically. In SU, you have to preplan the resolution, and its not easy to edit if you need to.

Its also worth noting that only the model line segments need to be smaller than the printer resolution on curves - on flat surfaces the segments can be as long as you need them to be and the model won't look faceted.

[findthong]

basically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.

Interesting... I was try it long time ago and thought it just suitable for objects like furnitures.
Do you means Moi could also be use for doing full architectural modeling, with a lot of objects, in Moi3d ?

[Jeff Hammond]

basically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.

Interesting... I was try it long time ago and thought it just suitable for objects like furnitures.
Do you means Moi could also be use for doing full architectural modeling, with a lot of objects, in Moi3d ?

yeah.. maybe not quite yet.
it's lacking in groups/components as well as layers so the main problem with having a whole bunch of objects in moi is organizing them..
hopefully some of these types of features will come to moi..

[Jeff Hammond]

Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.

yeah, i've seen that before (a model with a gazillion polys from rhino for 3d printing)

personally, i've never had anything printed in 3D.. my only experience with computer->robot has been with CNC..
in which case, i believe the cuts come out exactly as defined by the software (rhino in my case).. and if they aren't, if they're switched to segmentation, i definitely couldn't tell by looking at/feeling the cuts..

[Mark H.]

Normal: what's that again?

Just read through the - Transfer of licenses and personal data to Trimble - here, http://sketchup.google.com/usernotice.html

However I am still a little confused. I realise that its probably not possible to pin down a closing date. Certain times have been mentioned but nothing concrete. Would it not make more sense to have a 1 week post closing date dead line? This would in my opinion be more normal practice with these sort of things?

[Mike Lucey]

Normal: what's that again?

These days, I fear nothing much

[Jimmymino]

At some point in the future anybody (as in layman) will be able to tell a computer exactly what type of buildings, rooms, furnishings, etc. they envision -- the computer will just adapt the design in realtime, and most likely be able to run complex simulations from this data that we can only dream of. Manual modeling will be redundant (for the most part).

so i believe you're right.. many,many designers/architects/engineers etc may find themselves out of a job unless they step up their game..

I doubt that will ever happen. The average "lay-person" is just that...they lack the specialized knowledge that a designer/architect brings to the table. No computer program will ever replace that. Sure a software can facilitate in making thing and informing design decisions, but inputting parameters into a software and getting out a building or object will result in an ugly environment without the trained eye of a designer.

As it is, a "layman" can probably input parameters for a stair and get this:
http://www.cn-granite.com/upfiles/image ... 0stair.jpg

But a designer can input parameters for a stair and get this:
http://www.contemporist.com/2011/11/21/ ... rchitects/

[Ecuadorian]

Funny how you trust a company with all your data and suddenly all of that is sold to another company and you must accept it if you want to keep using the product.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out a hard reality that is becoming increasingly common.

[Jeff Hammond]

Funny how you trust a company with all your data and suddenly all of that is sold to another company and you must accept it if you want to keep using the product.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out a hard reality that is becoming increasingly common.

especially with banks.. we basically have two or three banks left in the u.s.

[jgb]

Funny how you trust a company with all your data and suddenly all of that is sold to another company and you must accept it if you want to keep using the product.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out a hard reality that is becoming increasingly common.

Which is a main reason I will NOT use Cloud computing, Facebook, etc. Theys gots U by the short and curlies.

[jgb]

Regarding the continuing discussion on "true curves".....

Other than turning on a lathe, or drilling a hole, there is no such thing as a true curve in machining a part.

All manual mills and NC machines go from X1-Y1-Z1 to X2-Y2-Z2 in a discrete straight line.
That line may be very very short, and will look smooth when done. Just like the "smooth" face joins in SU.

Keep the design segment length at or below the machines resolution, and the NC s/w will compensate to provide a smooth looking surface. But it is not smooth, and you can feel the flats, even if they were 1/1000 in. I've sent countless parts back for hand polishing to smooth a machined surface that had to be smooth, such as a mating face or a cam face, when I was in QC at an aircraft manufacturer.

Where a very smooth curve is actually needed, the designers leave excess material on that surface to be polished smooth in an NC grinder operation, which may go through multiple passes and grades of grit to get the end smoothness needed.

[BIMMER]

I was torn between posting and not posting this message.

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have for a couple of reasons. Venting (even in a professional manner) will probably not help the SketchUp community or the people that are part of the SketchUp team, and my comments will not change the reality of the acquisition.

I can say that our experience pre and post acquisition was indicative of others that become part of Trimble before and after the time of the acquisition of the entity I was with, within the division we all made up. These were my observations garnered through interactions and discussions with others within the division as well as corporate. But as someone else pointed out, it's all perspective. I wouldn't consider myself disgruntled, perhaps educated would be a better term. The real question is what was the environment like with Google? That's something none of us can answer, if it was similar then experience may be a rewarding one for the SketchUp team and positive for community.

BIMMER

I feel sorry for the SketchUp team (or anyone being acquired by Trimble). I worked for a company that was acquired by these guys and let me tell you things will change in a big way and not for the better. I hope the SketchUp experience is different of course, but our company was in the middle of a pretty heavy acquisition spree by Trimble, and I was visible to a lot during that time.

Trimble is excellent at acquisition’s, that's primarily how they fuel growth. They are however culturally deficient when it comes to integrating the technology and people that come along with an acquisition into the larger operations of a segment, division or the company as a whole, it's just not part of their DNA.

Their standard operating procedure is to close the acquisition to much fanfare, have a rally the troops meeting with the affected staff, and begin to make subtle changes (updated branding, alter legalese, change payment processing, alter credit terms, etc.). Within 9 to 12 months the acquired entity will go through a reduction in force of some kind to improve operating income (all areas are typically impacted).

Management will be driven to increase top line (drive revenue) at all costs, and improve bottom line by maintaining required operating income levels and increasing margin primarily through layering additional work responsibilities on remaining employees and limiting any additional headcount for as long as possible. Additional hires for example have to be approved by the CEO directly and can take months to approve, if they're ever approved.

During this time the entity will have to work within the bureaucratic nightmare that is Trimble corporate. This is where the dysfunctional family comes in. Legal, Finance and HR stay focused on "protecting the business". In fact, to corporate you’re the enemy. Managers will have to deal with insane credit policies, overly protective lawyers that dictate the terms of a sales contract, and HR staff with a focus on "documenting issues" (referred to as the charm squad internally) to ensure the company is safe from disgruntled employee litigation.

General Managers wield a lot of power; they manage their divisions/segments with a strict focus on milking as much money (top and bottom line) as possible within as short a period as possible of the acquisition. Career development, product growth, service to the client, operational efficiency, all becomes low to no priority. In many respects, the General Managers are like absentee landlords, they come around close to the end of the quarter to collect the rent (revenue targets). If the rent looks like it'll be paid in full (targets attained), they will leave you alone, if it looks like you're short on your rent, they'll provide you "help" to make sure you do pay in full. Growth is expected quarter over quarter, and year over year, regardless of seasonality.

Destructive personalities are not dealt with, especially from Sales Managers. Sales carries a VERY BIG STICK, and you'll deal with some Sales Managers that are not just complete morons, but are very destructive to employee morale. Yet, they will hold a lot of sway with the General Manager of a division because they're the one's responsible for bringing in the dollars. In many respects, it appears that the General Managers surround themselves with people that could never hope to grow into their role, so they don’t have the risk of ever losing it until they’ve moved up to a Vice President/executive level.

After a while, arbitrary dates will be set for product releases to ensure revenue targets can be attained for a given quarter, with compromises made to ensure the date is achieved.

All the while, the original culture will slowly become "Trimbleized" and good talent will start to flee in droves (compare the pre and post acquisition turnover rate and you'll be shocked at the trend).

Trimble is terrified of Autodesk, and this would be the main driver behind the SketchUp acquisition. Expect the "FREE" version to garner less attention over the next 24 months as focus shifts to ramping up revenue (either through integration of the SketchUp IP to shore up some deficient products or by driving new releases of the product to grow market share).

While they'll promise the sun, the moon and the stars during the courting process, you'll be lucky if they deliver on a third of it after 12 to 24 months. Good luck, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[andybot]

@Bimmer: So are you still with the company that's part of Trimble? Are there any constructive comments you can offer based on your experience?

[Glenn at home]

I like it too. I wish I had a reason for it but I don't Such a clean interface and very usable. I guess I could make a use for it. SU does pretty much what I need (arch wise).

If something go wrong...
I ever think something like SketchUp ability + Moi curvy nurbs is ideal. Join force?
I bet they would gain a good amount from something like Kickstarter.com

basically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.[/quote]

[Glenn at home]

The advantage that Rhino (or similar tools) has over SU in this case is resolution is set when you export, and you can adjust it automatically. In SU, you have to preplan the resolution, and its not easy to edit if you need to.

Its also worth noting that only the model line segments need to be smaller than the printer resolution on curves - on flat surfaces the segments can be as long as you need them to be and the model won't look faceted.

Good info, thanks. I have a friend looking into this (3D printing) and I will pass along.

[Mike Lucey]

@Bimmer: So are you still with the company that's part of Trimble? Are there any constructive comments you can offer based on your experience?

Andy, Bimmer said 'I worked for a company', so I imagine no longer with a Trimble. Anyway, its good that Bimmer offered more information. I know that transitioning from a small company to a large one can be very frustrating. If Trimble purchased the company Bimmer worked for, it must have been smaller.

It looks like this transition simply did not work for Bimmer. This happens all the time, I have in the past worked for large companies and often got frustrated with the way things were done or not done! I decided a long time ago to go it alone and form my own company. However working in a small company can also have it drawbacks also if you are not a 'jack of all trades' type of person

There is no perfect company to work for. Its a case of finding what suits you the best and learning how to get on with people ...... most of the time!

[andybot]

It looks like this transition simply did not work for Bimmer. This happens all the time, I have in the past worked for large companies and often got frustrated with the way things were done or not done! I decided a long time ago to go it alone and form my own company. However working in a small company can also have it drawbacks also if you are not a 'jack of all trades' type of person

There is no perfect company to work for. Its a case of finding what suits you the best and learning how to get on with people ...... most of the time!

Mike -
Yeah, I work for myself too, but I've had experiences with larger companies, as well as known people with similar experiences of sales focused growth that crowds out creativity. Different people/ personalities will certainly deal with the realities differently.

I guess I am concerned that, for example, Trimble comes out with a proprietary skp format that then means that they will control the plugins/ exporters as well. This discussion of exporting to STL would then mean you have to buy a proprietary plugin to get exports to different formats - thereby monetizing SU for Trimble's purposes.

[Dan Rathbun]

I guess I am concerned that, for example, Trimble comes out with a proprietary skp format that then means that they will control the plugins/ exporters as well. This discussion of exporting to STL would then mean you have to buy a proprietary plugin to get exports to different formats - thereby monetizing SU for Trimble's purposes.

Why do think that the DXF/DWG import and export was removed from the Free edition in 7 ??

IMHO.. too many companies / users were using the Free edition for commercial work, when they could / should have bought the Pro edition.

[andybot]

Why do think that the DXF/DWG import and export was removed from the Free edition in 7 ??

IMHO.. too many companies / users were using the Free edition for commercial work, when they could / should have bought the Pro edition.

Dan - I'm not saying having to pay for pro functionality is a problem, I'm just concerned that if you look at Trimble's pricing structure for their other products, cost may be a serious issue for continued adoption of SU. It may become a niche engineering tool.

Anyway, free** was part of Google's philosophy, including pro uses.

**Edit: Right Mike - Free as in price...

[Mike Lucey]

Anyway, free was part of Google's philosophy, including pro uses.

I think it is more a case of free at a price is part of Google's philosophy. I have no problem with that however and even find the side bar adverts in my gmail quite useful at times.

Not even charities can give away things for free, someone / thing has to pay for it. Even the air we breath is not free. The price we have to learn to pay for it, is not to pollute it nor decimate the rain forests.

[frv]

http://www.hallway.com/companies/trimbl ... ws?nt=5961

I hope this really is a bit of frustration of those who got fired. But I think its a good time to start looking around a bit, other modelers and so on. After 20 years in CAD I have seen its never a good thing to get too dependent on a single tool. The less you look around the more difficult it is to make a change once you need to.

But of course Trimble Sketchup could be a great combination giving us lots of what we never got from Google. The real problem is of course @Last. They should never have taken the money...

[findthong]

I'm convinced that I should plan for some options, just in case.

Rhino3d - very complete package for anything when considered plugins, got a lot of useful AEC function and plugins like grasshopper, visualarq, rhinoBIM and etc.
FormZ 7/Bonzai3d - powerful, not hard to grasp, have a lot potential for concept,presentations and BIM, which is to come. But it have small ecology, communications maybe a problem.
Moi3d - it's sketchup for nurb modeling. Again, small software ecology and plugins. But export really clean, working with other software is convenient.
SolidWorks Live Buildings - never know it would happened or not. But if it come, it's likely what Lumion do with tradition rendering technology.
Project vasari - far from easy to use, limited workflow.
edited: Blender - I still never looked into it much, but a lot of potential. IMHO still not sure how to use it for concept modeling.
Spaceclaim - SketchUp for solid modeling. Gosh ... it so smart and very SketchUp, I wish they would tap to AEC space too!

I want to use SketchUp 9,10,11 and so on. IMHO Price is not that big problem, it's about dev direction and API. And for the worse case, I just have to use 3DS Max, that's it. A lot of SketchUp plugins trained many aspected of 3DS Max to me already

Anyway, it's up to Trimble decision .

[andybot]

I'm convinced that I should plan for some options, just in case.

Rhino3d - very complete package for anything when considered plugins, got a lot of useful AEC function and plugins like grasshopper, visualarq, rhinoBIM and etc.
FormZ 7/Bonzai3d - powerful, not hard to grasp, have a lot potential for concept,presentations and BIM, which is to come. But it have small ecology, communications maybe a problem.
Moi3d - it's sketchup for nurb modeling. Again, small software ecology and plugins. But export really clean, working with other software is convenient.
SolidWorks Live Buildings - never know it would happened or not. But if it come, it's likely what Lumion do with tradition rendering technology.
Project vasari - far from easy to use, limited workflow.

I want to use SketchUp 9,10,11 and so on. IMHO Price is not that big problem, it's about dev direction and API. And for the worse case, I just have to use 3DS Max, that's it.

Anyway, it's up to Trimble decision .

You left out Blender! That's a big one with lots of features and developments.

[Pilou]

Project vasari

The Project Vasari technology preview is licensed for a limited term and for a particular territory as referenced in the End User License Agreement. The technology preview executable expires on August 31, 2012, and the program will no longer operate after that date.

[charly2008]

Hi,

I want to use SketchUp 9,10,11 and so on.

Anyway, it's up to Trimble decision .

And for the worse case, I just have to use Sketchup 8 with the plugins.

But I'm not a professional, I use SketchUp and other 3D programs only as a hobby.

Charly

[sketch3d.de]

I'm convinced that I should plan for some options, just in case.

You left out ViaCAD 2D/3D! That's a direct NURBS surface & volume modeler with *new* push/pull modeling, 2D drafting, SU import and all common 3D CAD interfaces (STEP, IGES, Acis SAT etc.) available under OSX & Win for pocket money.

Norbert

[findthong]

Hi,

And for the worse case, I just have to use Sketchup 8 with the plugins.
But I'm not a professional, I use SketchUp and other 3D programs only as a hobby.

Charly

I wish I could do that too! Too bad we need to keep up with things, which I dont' think current SketchUp 8 can hold it longer than 4-5 years at best, when we have to make money and compete

sketch3d.de,
Thanks for your infos! I've limited knowledge, that's why I love this place!

[Alan Fraser]

Professional or hobbyist, it seems a bit premature to be seeking out alternatives to SU. V8 is perfectly adequate for most purposes; and for some time to come...unless you really need NURBS, in which case you probably ought to be using something like MOI anyway. V8 will also likely get better through the efforts of the Ruby community, regardless of what happens in Boulder.

Of course it all may go pear-shaped, but given the stated aspirations coming from both sides in this marriage, the potential for SU could be tremendous. If enough R&D money was pumped into Layout, for instance, it could become the new de facto standard for CDs in the digital/handheld age. Why is that standard still reliant on hatching from the pen and paper era, when rotateable 3D detailing is possible which could offer materials or BIM information on mouseovers or r-click?
I think this is maybe why Trimble is so interested in the huge userbase; it has the leverage to make the skp file format totally ubiquitous. Being the best isn't good enough, you also have to be a household name. Remember VHS and Betamax? Betamax was decidedly better, but you just couldn't find many tapes for it.
Interestingly, Paul Morrel, the UK government's construction advisor, last year warned architects here to adopt BIM or "...be Betamaxed out."

The natural consequence of being an industry standard is that you need to be that for everyone...including the likes of Frank Gehry and Zaha Hadid...and that would necessitate better built-in functionality which would benefit every user.

I personally don't expect to see much in the way of shiny new toys for a while (but happy to be proven wrong). I think the SU team will have their work cut out getting the fundamentals of integration right. I suspect it's not something that would be very easy to revisit and reverse engineer some point down the line.

[pbacot]

The natural consequence of being an industry standard is that you need to be that for everyone...including the likes of Frank Gehry

I was with you until here. Gehry will find his own solutions. He certainly could make some use of an "industry standard" but we're talking different buildings, process, and resources. The other 99% should be a worthy goal.

[Dan Rathbun]

I think the SU team will have their work cut out getting the fundamentals of integration right.

The hardest thing I foresee is having the engine code be compilable for the "base" SketchUp with Ruby wrappers, and also without, for other Trimble Pro products that will not have Ruby scripting (unless Trimble thinks to extend all their other products with an embedded Ruby interpreter.)

Imagining the amount of conditional statements that would need to be added to the "engine" code makes me dizzy.