Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby otb designworks » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:31 pm

How are you guys dealing with printing 24x36 in color?

I use color codings with my shop drawings and the boys really like how it works. I have been putting everything on 8.5x11 sheets so we could print them easily. But, it is a whole lot more work making myriad small sheets instead of a few big ones and I would love to migrate to the larger format.

The local printer priced each 24x36 in color at $40 :o as opposed to $1.50 for standard laser printed greyscale.

Thoughts?
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby pbacot » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:02 pm

zx10r_Gaz wrote: The same file in AutoCAD would be around 700-800kb. So I have had to export MEDIUM (11Mb) just so I can submit it to the local authority (20Mb file size limit)



You submit pdf's? We are so backwards. Always wet signed paper here. Last week I saw a guy in the building dept. with a dolly full of multiple rolls of plans and boxes of calcs, and he was still going out for more stuff.We're not talking skyscrapers here. :roll:
zx10r_Gaz wrote: I must point out that I don't use any plugins, scripts or additional toolbars at all. I just use it out of the box and as is. Styles & materials are my only additions to SketchUp.

Gaz...

even more impressive!
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby pbacot » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:14 pm

OTB Designworks wrote:How are you guys dealing with printing 24x36 in color?

I use color codings with my shop drawings and the boys really like how it works. I have been putting everything on 8.5x11 sheets so we could print them easily. But, it is a whole lot more work making myriad small sheets instead of a few big ones and I would love to migrate to the larger format.

The local printer priced each 24x36 in color at $40 :o as opposed to $1.50 for standard laser printed greyscale.

Thoughts?


Your local printers are behind a bit, not as expensive here (but grayscale is 2.50). If you wish to print yourself, look at HP111 series for an inexpensive but fine solution.
In these tight times, I print many jobs from my plotter and charge the same fee as the printers would. Prints are always reimbursable.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:40 am

OTB Designworks wrote:How are you guys dealing with printing 24x36 in color?

I use color codings with my shop drawings and the boys really like how it works. I have been putting everything on 8.5x11 sheets so we could print them easily. But, it is a whole lot more work making myriad small sheets instead of a few big ones and I would love to migrate to the larger format.

The local printer priced each 24x36 in color at $40 :o as opposed to $1.50 for standard laser printed greyscale.

Thoughts?


Hi Chuck:

That price they are quoting is insane. Are they using a plotter or an OCE printer or are they printing it black and white and using crayons? My cost from my local printer (and I live in the sticks) is $8 per sheet on 20lb stock. I also have a large format plotter that I use for in house use only. Otherwise everything gets printed at the shop and charged to the client as a direct cost. The only time I plot in full color is for the building department permit sets, the owner's set and one color set for the contractor. Otherwise everything is printed grayscale which still looks great.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:45 am

zx10r_Gaz wrote:Sonder,

Like you, It's still a big learning curve for me. Knowing what I know from this drawing I will tackle the next SU model/Layout differently. The output was also a bit of an issue for me. These drawings have had to be raster because of the styles & shadows etc, but exporting on HIGH level the PDF file was around 28Mb. The same file in AutoCAD would be around 700-800kb. So I have had to export MEDIUM (11Mb) just so I can submit it to the local authority (20Mb file size limit)
Gaz...


Are you booking or creating individual sheets. I don't think my individual sheets hit the 20mb file size, but I will check. Reno, Nevada, where I do some work, also requires submission of PDF's instead of paper. Very smart and forward thinking. I wish more departments would use this. Heck all the contractors I work with often refer to the pdf drawings over paper.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sawyer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:50 am

Sonder wrote:Here are a couple more samples - Maybe show your office you are not alone in your thoughts. To me this was a no brainer and I have been using ACAD for more than 20 years.


Hey Sonder,

This work is really inspirational!!! I have been doing commercial interiors for about 12 years now. I took the entire summer to learn how to use SU/LO. I just took on my first residential remodel project and I am hoping to be able to do the entire set in SU/LO. I am definitely not going to be as efficient or as fast as I am working in ACAD.... But, I really want to push my abilities with SU/LO. One thing I have been really beating my head with are site plans. Your post is an amazing example of a site plan. Mainly because of the different line types and weights you are using. Are you drawing these in SU or LO? I originally drew my site plan in SU. But they are just solid lines. I know I can bring the model into LO and "explode" it and then convert the lines to different line types/weights in LO. But, this seems to really defeat the purpose. Can you share the method you are using to create your site plans? Thanks!

P.s. horrible snow fall this year huh?
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:53 am

Hi Sawyer:

Yes, snow is lacking badly. Looks like it will finally change towards the end of the week.

As for the site plan, the line work - property lines, setbacks, tree graphic & notation are all in Layout. Everything else is in sketchup. I generate all my site topography from drawings provided by a land surveyor. Since that work is imported into sketchup, it is a simple matter of copying it into LO. If you have the scale set, it comes in at the correct scale and easily pastes over the model since all the geometry exists in the model. It is still a work in progress for me also.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby pbacot » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:17 am

Actually, Sonder, now that I think of it, I have no idea how you approach this. You copied objects in SU and set over the model in LO--getting linework you can modify with the shape style? I get different results if I do a copy from SU.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:35 am

pbacot wrote:Actually, Sonder, now that I think of it, I have no idea how you approach this. You copied objects in SU and set over the model in LO--getting linework you can modify with the shape style? I get different results if I do a copy from SU.


Yes that is correct. You copy line work from the SU model and paste it into Layout. When you do this, LO recognizes it as a SU model. You then set it as Vector rendering. Then you explode it. It remains grouped, and you can edit the line type through Shape Style as well as move the group together. This is especially helpful for property lines, setbacks and contour lines.

The trick to make it easy, is you copy line work from the same scene that is saved in SU and is depicted in the specific LO drawing. That way when you paste it as an overlay in LO it retains orientation and scale, making for very easy placement. So if you have a scene named "Site Plan" in SU, make sure you are copying line work directly from the saved view. I typically use layers to isolate specific items like contour lines, setbacks and property lines, so it is really easy to isolate that line work in a specific scene for copying.


There are a few steps, but it works really well. I hope that makes sense.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby otb designworks » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:45 pm

Sonder wrote:
Hi Chuck:

That price they are quoting is insane. Are they using a plotter or an OCE printer or are they printing it black and white and using crayons? My cost from my local printer (and I live in the sticks) is $8 per sheet on 20lb stock. I also have a large format plotter that I use for in house use only. Otherwise everything gets printed at the shop and charged to the client as a direct cost. The only time I plot in full color is for the building department permit sets, the owner's set and one color set for the contractor. Otherwise everything is printed grayscale which still looks great.


Yeah, that was what I thought. It is a plotter printer they are using.

Guess I need to look around and explore out of town options. Ah the joys of living in a small town:)
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby otb designworks » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:46 pm

pbacot wrote:Your local printers are behind a bit, not as expensive here (but grayscale is 2.50). If you wish to print yourself, look at HP111 series for an inexpensive but fine solution.
In these tight times, I print many jobs from my plotter and charge the same fee as the printers would. Prints are always reimbursable.


Thanks for the suggestion; I will look into that printer.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby pbacot » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:01 pm

You then set it as Vector rendering.


Ah. That is the key element. Thanks! Peter
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sawyer » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:26 pm

Sonder wrote:
pbacot wrote:Actually, Sonder, now that I think of it, I have no idea how you approach this. You copied objects in SU and set over the model in LO--getting linework you can modify with the shape style? I get different results if I do a copy from SU.


Yes that is correct. You copy line work from the SU model and paste it into Layout. When you do this, LO recognizes it as a SU model. You then set it as Vector rendering. Then you explode it. It remains grouped, and you can edit the line type through Shape Style as well as move the group together. This is especially helpful for property lines, setbacks and contour lines.

The trick to make it easy, is you copy line work from the same scene that is saved in SU and is depicted in the specific LO drawing. That way when you paste it as an overlay in LO it retains orientation and scale, making for very easy placement. So if you have a scene named "Site Plan" in SU, make sure you are copying line work directly from the saved view. I typically use layers to isolate specific items like contour lines, setbacks and property lines, so it is really easy to isolate that line work in a specific scene for copying.


There are a few steps, but it works really well. I hope that makes sense.


Thanks for the more detailed explanation! This helps alot!

Cheers!

Jonathan
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:29 pm

Once I figured out that worked, it convinced me to completely drop ACAD. That was a decision that did not come lightly with all my libraries, .lsp routines and standards that I established over the past 12 years. I always wondered why ACAD did not have an interface that was WYSIWYG. I also could not understand or justify the cost per seat. Heck the annual subscription is as much as SU Pro. The other little tid bit that makes a huge difference in workflow is establishing your scrapbooks. It basically becomes your own personal check list of items in a specific drawing. I love how you can build on it from any drawing your working on.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby lapx » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:48 pm

Love your work and style Sonder! Everyone is pushing revit including consultants because its BIM capabilities which sketchup is not strongly suited with these characteristics at present. I'm sure one day maybe but currently schedules, takeoffs, referencing,interferencing is not addressed adequaltely I presume? How do you deal with some of the timesavers that are highly dependable in BIM programs not to mention coordinaton with other consultants who may not use sketchup.
This is perhaps the biggest reason people continue to use autcad products because its easier to trade files with everyone else w/o having to deal with conversions. We work on 10s of million dollar projects. It would be virtually impossible to do this work exclusively using su it seams. I wish!
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:08 pm

lapx wrote:Love your work and style sonders! Everyone is pushing revit including consultants because its BIM capabilities which sketcup is not strongly suited with these characteristics at present. I'm sure one day maybe but currently schedules, takeoffs, referencing,interferencing is not addressed adequaltely I presume? How do you deal with some of the timesavers that are highly dependable in BIM programs not to mention coordinaton with other consultants who may not use sketchup.
This is perhaps the biggest reason people continue to use autcad products because its easier to trade files with everyone else w/o having to deal with conversions. We work on 10s of million dollar projects. It would be virtually impossible to do this work exclusively using su it seams. I wish!


Thanks,

I agree, that is Revits strong suit. However, if you use components wisely, you can track doors, windows etc. I am sure someone could come up with a Ruby to quantify them into a schedule. As for material and area Takeoffs, sketchup is wonderful at that and can quantify material areas much better than Revit. Referecing is more than adequate. Comparing the two graphically, IMHO isn't even close. Revit is really far behind. As for coordinating with consultants, I export a DWG from LO (takes seconds)and have heard no complaints at all.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby jplaca » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:22 pm

New User here.

I am a graduating Civil Engineer and have been using Sketchup for a while now to create basic layouts and photo-realistic renderings. However, I believe my abilities can be greatly increased when it comes to the presentation of my Layout designs.

I was wondering, how is it that you're able to get rendered layout designs? Most of my layout designs are using the basic Sketchup model details; all the layouts that really impress me have great material/photo-realistic properties.

Furthermore, as an Engineer our curriculum does not revolve around nice layouts - they're usually cut-and-dry (see autocad dwgs). Is there any rule-of-thumb that might help make my layouts more appealing (e.g isometric views, etc)
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby emerald15 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:12 pm

Having some spare time this Friday, I've been looking for answers. I was going to pose my questions re: Layout - specifically on raster vs. vector resolution & on the possibility of smaller PDF file sizes. However, I found this thread & have not only found - well, if not a solution, then at least confirmation that the files sizes are what they are... but have spent the last hour enjoying studying some very beautifully presented drawings and 'listening' to some like minded opinions on SU vs. AutoCAD.

I too have quit on AutoCAD in favour of SU in the last year & almost everyday find something new I like about it. Yes, LO is a bit 'clunky' but my scrapbook & templates are better organised now, which is a help.

My work (exhibition design) is nothing like as complex as the above, so seeing LO cope with these presentations... well if you can - then I can too! :D
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Edson » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:51 pm

hi emerald,

regarding file sizes, there are some utilities that allow one to reduce pdf sizes by 75% (at least on the mac size of things) without perceivable loss of quality.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby fouronethirty » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:09 am

all this and all that , i just have to wait for the developers to release new improved version of l.o, i do all of my architectural documents using su to l.o. it works great, just one thing, l.o needs more tools and improvements, i know guys at google knows exactly what to add there, simply amazing tools works just fine and making things easier. :) many tnx to them
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby ashscott » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:56 am

Wow, this is a very useful thread, some of the drawings posted are truly inspiring.

I am halfway through an engineering project and have been creating working drawings directly in SU (many, many layers), exporting as .jpg (I can get a high enough resolution that way), and then compiling the .jpgs into a .pdf

However, reading this thread has shown me I can do a much better job with layout if I will just take the time to learn it. I initially turned away from Layout as it seemed so unintuitive. Hopefully this will save me a heap of the re-working I am having to do when someone objects to something in a working drawing.

By the way, you all keep referring to working in raster mode in LO but I can't seem to get dimensions accurate enough in raster mode - I have to switch to vector to ensure the dimension is snapping to the point I think it is snapping to - has anyone else experienced this?
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby bmike » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:50 pm

ashscott wrote:Wow, this is a very useful thread, some of the drawings posted are truly inspiring.

I am halfway through an engineering project and have been creating working drawings directly in SU (many, many layers), exporting as .jpg (I can get a high enough resolution that way), and then compiling the .jpgs into a .pdf

However, reading this thread has shown me I can do a much better job with layout if I will just take the time to learn it. I initially turned away from Layout as it seemed so unintuitive. Hopefully this will save me a heap of the re-working I am having to do when someone objects to something in a working drawing.

By the way, you all keep referring to working in raster mode in LO but I can't seem to get dimensions accurate enough in raster mode - I have to switch to vector to ensure the dimension is snapping to the point I think it is snapping to - has anyone else experienced this?


i work in vector for the most part. hybrid to show section cuts and various materials and 'sketchy' styles as needed.
i did a few projects in SketchUp with layers and views - a PITA compared to the control you'll have in LayOut.
yes, there are some un-intuitive bits to it - but once you settle in on a process, you will get faster with it.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:50 am

Just an update. These are how I am formatting my detail sheets. There are 6 exterior sheets and 3 interior sheets for this particular project. So far the speed is working out great.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:18 am

Lighting plan.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby pbacot » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:11 am

Beautiful, Sonder ! the details look great with the fog. 3d details something I'd like to do more of. Usually only end up doing 1-2 3d details if at all. Very useful for water proofing in particular They don't look that hard to model--a lot of push-pull, but I bet finding the right view for every one takes some work. Your cutaway technique is very effective and obviously well thought-out. Then finishing, sending all to LO and final tweaking must take some more time. I just think it would blow my hours budget...

Curious about your light switch depiction, but that's not a SU thing.

P.S. "Metal Ridge" looks like a valley to me.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:47 pm

pbacot wrote:Beautiful, Sonder ! the details look great with the fog. 3d details something I'd like to do more of. Usually only end up doing 1-2 3d details if at all. Very useful for water proofing in particular They don't look that hard to model--a lot of push-pull, but I bet finding the right view for every one takes some work. Your cutaway technique is very effective and obviously well thought-out. Then finishing, sending all to LO and final tweaking must take some more time. I just think it would blow my hours budget...

Curious about your light switch depiction, but that's not a SU thing.

P.S. "Metal Ridge" looks like a valley to me.


Thanks for that catch. Yes it is a valley. I set the view centered in SU and save as a scene, so I don't actually do much adjusting in LO, other than resizing the reference box. These detail sheets really didn't take me long. I do have a huge library of details though, so editing them for individual jobs is pretty quick. Notation took me the longest because this is my first round of full details with Layout. The next jobs will get quicker.

The light switching and symbols are all done in LO. The switching looks a little different as this home will have a full lutron/savant system with lutron control panels and Ipad docking stations for various automated controls.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby bmike » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:07 pm

wow, sonder, really nice details and electrical plan!
i'll have to mess around with fog... nice effect.

-mike
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:12 pm

Thanks.

Yes the fog really helps with depth and also lightens the model a little for crisper notes. I am using that affect on all drawings now including plans. The electrical plan above is without fog, but in my next round it will have a slight fog affect.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby seasdes » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:40 am

I do not know whether there is a answer to this. However, is it much slower to use Layout for construction drawings compared to CAD?
Sorry if I am pushing in here. But my question relates to construction drawings.
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Re: Construction & Working Drawings - Discussion

Postby Sonder » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:13 pm

seasdes wrote:I do not know whether there is a answer to this. However, is it much slower to use Layout for construction drawings compared to CAD?
Sorry if I am pushing in here. But my question relates to construction drawings.
Walter


For me it is faster, but I have developed my whole detail library in SU over the past 5 years. Once you get used to how LO works, I think it is faster. If you are just learning, then count on a learning curve which will be slower at first. The key is setting up all your scrapbooks for standard notation and graphics. Keep you SU models tight and maintain your scenes. I just finished producing 3 sets of construction documents for 3 different custom homes. All three were completed over the last 3-4 months with each set having between 45-55 sheets of architectural drawings. This was my first time utilizing LayOut, so there was some time involved in setting up standards / experimentation.
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